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2.4L Engine noise on cold start-up, CRV AND Accord

670K views 1K replies 160 participants last post by  Coastie05 
#1 · (Edited)
Dear Honda,

I'm a new owner of a 2014 Honda CRV EX. This is the 4th Honda vehicle and 5th Honda product my family has purchased. My Mom has also purchased a 2014 CRV EX-L, this is her 3rd CRV.

I purchased another Honda due to your reputation for reliabiliy and quality control. You also have a reputation for stepping up to take care of your customers in every possible way, which I really apprecaite.

To say I'm extremly dissapointed that my brand new, 2014 CRV with 200 miles on it has an engine noise on cold-start up would be an understatement. If you search You Tube, for "2012 Honda CRV, Cold start noise" you will hear exactly what noise I'm referring to. Through research, I've found that this problem affects all recent model 2.4L engines, CRV's and Accords. It's a metal on metal sound, like a grinding noise, or to me sounds like the timing chain is hitting the valve cover.

I called my local Honda dealer who told me this noise is normal and that he could go out on his lot and start several random 2.4L Accords or CRV's and they would likely make the noise. He told me his personal 2013 Accord 2.4l does it, as does the dealershiop's general manager's new Accord! It lasts for a second or so and then is gone. Clearly this is a known problem. I also heard videos of several 2008 Accords making the same noise. I have 23+ years of mechanical experience working on a variety of makes and models and I can ASSURE you the noice is NOT normal.

The noise is brief, lasting a second or so, and if you get in the car with all doors closed you cannot hear it. You can only her it if you crank the car with the doors open (I had to warm it one day after a snow event which is the first I heard it), so a LARGE number of people probably are totally unaware it's even occuring.

With Honda's reputation for quality and reliability, how in the world has this problem gone on for the past 6 years without Honda getting to the root of the problem and addressing it? I understand the problem gets progressively worse and eventually will stretch the timing chain. I cannot believe that with all of your engineering and R&D, the cause of this noise has not been identified and a repair outlined.

I have found that in the morning, if you cycle the ignition key to the on position, then off for a moment, then back on and leave it on for a few seconds before cranking, it sometimes does not make the noise. I'm not intimately familiar with the 2.4L engine so I'm not sure what issue that would point towards, but hopefully that may give your engineer's a place to start. Occasionally it will not make the noise if I turn the key on, then wait a few seconds, then crank, however when I tried that tecnique after work yesterday, it still made the noise.

Honda, if you want to save your reputation for quality and reliabiliy, invest the time necessary to identify the exact cause of this problem and institute a re-call for all models affected. I really like my CRV, but after investing $26,000+ on a new vehcile, to have one that makes engine noise just because it's cold out when you first start it, is completly unacceptable.

Thank you.
 
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#2 ·
Update: In addition to making my dealer aware of this issue I also sent a fax to American Honda Customer Service. I received ONE call back from "Walter" at American Honda asking me to call him to further discuss. I left him a voice message that night and provided the VIN for my car on the voice message and asked him to call me back.

I have called several times the past few days and always get his voice mail and have yet to receive a return phone call. I certinly hope this is not going to become the new normal for Honda, who historically has provided great customer service and who steps up to make things right with their customers.
 
#3 ·
Keep us posted if you get a call back from Honda and what they say. I'm all for writing to them also if you make some headway.
 
#4 ·
Having not received a call from Walter in Customer Service I called back again and waited on hold for 15 minutes before I was connected with another CSR, who eventually transferred me to Walter.
I had left him a prior message indicating I had spoken to my local service manager who told me the noise was normal and I didn't want the car worked on for now.
However, after giving this matter more thought, I at least want it documented that I have this issue in case it becomes worse down the line. I was told I have to bring my car into the shop so the issue can be documented, since the dealer says the noise is normal (we all know metal on metal noises from an engine, especally a brand new car is not normal).
I was told once they document the problem, they can get with Honda's R&D team to see if any solutions are being worked on.

At this point I may just wait till the first oil change. In order for the problem to be heard by the dealer, I would have to leave it there overnight and return in the morning. I have very mixed feelings at this point. Noone should have to deal with this kind of issue on a brand new vehicle, let alone a Honda.

I almost feel like they want us all to bury our heads in the sand and pretend the sound is not there so we will all eventually just give up and accept their word that this is a normal sound. Noone is going to tell me ANY metal on metal sound coming from an engine is normal, or not causing some sort of damage in one way or another.

Hindsight being what it is, had I had any idea that I would have this issue, I would have never purchased this car. I love it, it's well designed, seems built well and it's comfortable, but we all know the engine is the heart of any vehcile and to have an issue with it already at 200 miles doesn not give me a feeling of confidence in it going forward.
 
#5 ·
I'm also waiting for my fist oil change which is coming up real soon. I have the service bulletin printed out and the sound recorded on my phone. I too just want it documented at this point because if they can't replicate it themselves I know they won't want to do anything.

I will let you know what they say when I take it for the oil change.
 
#8 ·
Thanks for the link, I actually found that one when searching on google the other day.

Intersetingly enough, today, it was in the 20's in my garage, I just did the "Key on, don't crank, wait, then crank and no noise." It seems when it's sitting outside after work that I get the noise if I don't cycle the key twice.

I did some additonal research on this issue last night and I found a very good you tube video that throughly explains the VCT system and how it operates. I think I have a good idea what the issue is, but can't say for sure.

In addition to the VCT actuator on the Intake cam, which is a hydraullically operated part based on oil pressure, there is a "VCT solenoid/valve" in the system. This valve moves fore and aft and directs oil to the actuator on the camshaft. Depending on conditions, this solenoid/valve will direct oil to passages in the cylinder head to either advance or retard cam timing.

What I suspect, since turning the key on or key on, off, on then crank, is that the solenoid/valve is not in the correct position when we try to start our engines in cold weather. This valve also has ports in it to bleed off oil pressure, so it makes sense that when we cycle our keys, it's changing the position of this VCT solenoid/valve in such a manner that it allows proper oil pressure to reach the VCT acutator on the camshaft and hence no noise.

Are you reading this Honda? I hope so and I hope this gives you more to go on. It would seem the opening and position of this VCT Solenoid/oil valve could be programmed to be in the position it comes to rest in by us cycling our keys and resolve this problem.

In my mind, since clearly cycling the key affects this issue, the issue must be one that is influenced by the electrical system and that solenoid valve controls oil pressure to the VCT actuator on the cam.

I think perhaps when others have had them changed, the tighter tolerances in the new VCT actuator masks the problem for a few months, but once things break in and a little bit of wear developes, the problem returns.

At least that is what I'm seeing right now.....
 
#9 ·
Unfortunately there is no evidence anyone at Honda is aware of this, while they do have a "social media team".

Over on the Ridgeline Owners Club we do have an occasional Honda Corporate Media Team surface but it's all marketing purpose, not customer problems or technical maintenance
 
#10 ·
Nice write up Gs. Makes sense as to why the key trick would work if the electrical system is involved. Mine made the sound this morning when I forgot the ritual and just cranked it. In looking around at other forums for Hondas, Toyotas, etc. I'm surprised how far back this issue goes and a permanent fix hasn't been found. That's the disappointing part, not that this happens because all good car makers can have issues.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I believe the problem is more related to the VTC actuator not holding oil after the engine is shut off than it is the valve causing the problem.
I think I remember the video saying the oil shouldn't drain from the actuator when the engine is shut off. If it didn't, you wouldn't hear the metal-on-metal noise, would you? Why the key cycling works is beyond me, it's not as if there's an electric oil pump pumping oil up to the actuator.
 
#12 ·
wolf, agree 100% that is what frustrates me. I've heard you tube videos on accords back as far as 2008 with this exact same noise. That is what frustrates me very much, with a company as reputable as Honda has been, to allow this to go on as long as they have is discraceful in my opinion.

As to your point 20CRV, if you watch the video I referenced, the VCT actuator solenoid has drain holes in the body, so that oil can flow both directions from the actuator and to the actuator. I suspect the solenoid/oil control valve is not "landing" in the correct position when the engine shuts down, and in cold weather situations when the oil is thicker, it creates an oil pressure problem as opposed to warm weather when the little bit the engine spins before it fires is enough to build sufficient pressure so that it does not make the noise.

I'm not an engineer or anything like that, but I have been spinning wrenches over 23+ years now and I have a mechanical aptitude. I could be totally wrong however. But I believe I have documented cycling the key on and off, sometimes just key on, wait, crank is enough that it does not make the noise. the VCT actuator itself does not have any electrical wires going to it, the only electrical device in the system is the VCT actuator solenoid (Oil control valve), so that's why I've focused on that.

Again, I could be 100% off base, but it makes sense if you watch that you tube video on the VCT actuator system. It's about 4 minutes long and worth a watch if you have this issue
 
#24 ·
wolf, agree 100% that is what frustrates me. I've heard you tube videos on accords back as far as 2008 with this exact same noise. That is what frustrates me very much, with a company as reputable as Honda has been, to allow this to go on as long as they have is discraceful in my opinion.
Hi,
( 2014 owner here ) The Accords back in 2008,..If this noise was just ignored , I wonder if they have 100k - 200k miles by now and are still running fine ? We have Only put a few hundred on the car so far. Our 2002 Accord V6 was such a good car, I hope this comes close.. seems like a good driving ,solid car
 
#13 ·
A little of my backround, ex-machinist, last worked as a manufacturing engineer in aerospace building satellites, the kind DirecTV uses and others.
Gs, think of this a minute, if the VTC actuator, not the solenoid, can't hold oil when the engine is shut off, you're always going to be in a position of having the possibility of it making the noise. Granted, cycling the key appears to insure that the solenoid is in the correct position to shunt oil to cause the actuator to be retarded on the cam, but if the actuator hasn't got any oil in it then you'll get the noise if oil pressure isn't built up quick enough. In cold weather I think what is happening is the VTC solenoid is out of the correct position and the oil has drained from the actuator itself. When you start the car without the cycling of the key, the time it takes the solenoid to 'correct itself' causes the metal-on-metal sound. But the reason is because the actuator itself doesn't have oil in it to begin with. It should not leak out at engine shut down.
Does that hold water?
 
#14 ·
Went by my dealership today to make an appt for my oil change this coming week and went into the whole grinding noise on cold startup, even played the recording I made and showed them the TSB and as I expected the response was if they can't replicate it they can't fix it. So I'm dropping off the car the night before to let it sit outside and see if they hear it the next morning. Basically a 50/50 chance it will do it on that given day.
 
#15 ·
Are you going to be there when they try starting it in the morning?
I'd be keeping the keys and going back the next morning to witness the start up.
 
#16 ·
Didn't think of that, but it's a good idea.
 
#17 ·
20CRV, yes, your expination makes perfect sense. Thanks, I appreciate that. My plan if it ever gets to the point that I'm tired of the noise is to make an appointment at the dealership and drop it there the night before, then keep the keys and go back so that I can be present when I crank it. I'm still not wild about having my engine with 300 miles torn apart already so I'm going to leave it be and monitor it for ahwile.

I just wish Honda would step up and take care of this issue instead of calling it normal or denying there is an issue. The issue is documented, it's out there and it's widespread. Surely they must know it's a problem and my experience with Honda prior is they always step up and remedy stuff like this. I'm dissapointed that it's documented back to the 08' Accords without resolution.
 
#18 ·
Gs- I'm with you on not wanting your engine opened up. If it were me and the key on/off/on/crank scenario worked at 'solving' the noise problem, I'd train myself (and my wife too) to follow that process every time I started the car. Like you say, metal-on-metal isn't good for an engine and the oil it is lubed with. If by doing so I can avoid having a dealer mechanic getting into the engine that's the best 'solution' I've heard and/or read about yet. I don't know if you saw the one video of how to change the actuator itself, but it shows them holding the camshaft on the bench and torquing the bolt that holds it on to 78 ft/lb of torque. Now I've done some wrenching in my day and I've never been able to get that much torque on something that someone else is holding by hand. YMMV.
 
#19 ·
I agree with you all in that I don't really want my 5 month old engine opened up either. My goal is to have it documented, since it's going in for an oil change this week, in case it ever becomes a bigger problem. If I can keep the noise at bay with the key thing, then that's fine with me. It's only done 3 times since I first heard it at the beginning of December and we've had some sub zero days and nights so it's been very rare thus far.
 
#20 ·
Sounds good guys. My car is pretty finicky with the noise. It seems that even in "warmer" temps, if it's been sitting for a few hours if I don't turn the key on and pause, I get the noise. This happened over the weekend after I had washed it and left it sit for ahwile afterwards, then went to move it back into my garage. I can see how some can say it sounds like you are holding the starter "on" too long too, as it sounded exactly like that. I think the cabins of our V's are so well insulated it makes it sound like that.

It's not until you start it with the door open that you truly hear the noise. I cringe everytime I hear it, I know that. But as you guys have so accurately said, when our engines were assembled at Honda, they were done in very controlled conditions, out of the chassis (obvisouly) by workers trained and who do this all day long, every day.

I'm not downing Honda repair techs at all, however, just the conditions they operate in, working flat rate, and as 20CRV states, the proccedure to change out the VCT Actuator is pretty involved and includes removing the intake camshaft completly, holding it on a bench with another person helping, ETC, zip-tieing the cam chain to the other camshaft, hoping it does not come off the crank pulley, ETC, I could go on and on, the valves have to be re-adjusted, ETC.

If my noise gets bad enough when I have 50,000+ miles on it, then yes, I will take it in at that point, but hopefully the key on, wait, crank or key on, key off, key on, wait, crank proccedure will keep the noise at bay for now.

Beyond this issue, I REALLY like my new CRV, it seems VERY well built, solid and is very comfortable. Again, it's just ashame Honda has not figured out what is going on by now and instituted a re-call to correct it for it's customers!

Are you listening Honda?
 
#21 ·
Beyond this issue, I REALLY like my new CRV, it seems VERY well built, solid and is very comfortable.
Same here. Love the car. I think it looks great, rides great, good mpg, etc. This is the first time I've had any kind of potential issue with a Honda (3 Accords previously), so we'll see how it goes.
 
#22 ·
I was just reading the latest posts in this thread when I had an idea rattle around in the old cranium. Suppose the engineers designed the actuator to work with say, oh, 10-30 wt oil, BUT the bean counters made them change to 0-20 wt to meet the CAFE stds.
Do you think the change in viscosity could be a reason for the actuators 'leaking'?
Or are synthetics all the same molecular size no matter what the viscosity?
 
#25 ·
That's a good thought, but I don't think so. I agree the molecules in Synthetics are all the same and viscosity could certinly play a role, however, if we stepped up to a thicker oil, I think the problem could be worse. If this truly is an oil pressure/retention problem with the VCT actuator on the camshaft itself, then if it is leaking down when the engine is cold, thicker oil does not flow as well as thinner oil, so I tend to think it would take longer for that thicker oil to get up to the top end fo the engine and could actually cause a longer period of rattling until the actuator came up to proper pressure.

I still can't get past that this is a VCT Solenoid/oil control valve problem. In light of the fact that it's clearly affected by either turning the key on and leaving it sit for a few seconds or cycling on-of-on-crank. I agree with you in that the Actuator should not be "leaking down" when the engine is off, so I'm not suggesting that it's not without fault, but the fact that it's affected by cycling the key still makes me think it's not "programmed" correctly, in that during the engine shutdown proccess, it's not returning to the proper position for the next engine start.

When we key on and then wait, the actuator/valve appears to "re-set" itself and then when you crank all is well. It seems to me this should be able to be corrected by a computer software update or something along those lines.

But what do I know? (HAHA).

If I had access to all the engineering and R&D facilities that Honda does, I think I could get to the bottom of this, which again makes me question why they have not done so on their own yet!
 
#23 ·
I do believe synthetic oil molecules are all identical. Mineral oil molecules are not all the same as the molecules can vary in size and weight and viscosity is defined/determined by the molecular weight.
 
#28 ·
neondave - Part of the reason your 2002 V-6 (and mine too) was such a good car is that it was the last model of that generation Accord. The assembly line had been building the same car (for the most part) for 7 years and really knew how to put them together. The ONLY reason I traded mine in was because the trans was leaking like a sieve from almost all the gaskets holding the case together, not the seals on the shafts. I really wish I'd had the trans rebuilt instead of getting the car I have now. Not that I don't like my coupe, it just doesn't fit our lifestyle at the moment like the old car would have.
 
#29 ·
Well, went to the dealership this morning to start her up with the tech and no noise at startup of course. It was about 30* at the time so perhaps not cold enough. Part of me is glad it didn't do it because I didn't want them opening up my engine, but the other part of me wanted then to hear it :D

No codes came up either from my past experiences with the sound so as expected nothing they can do.

They also said that TSB I showed them did not pertain to my vehicle. I realize it only goes up to 2012 but it's the same issue. Regardless it's on record that I mentioned it so I'll leave it at that and see how it goes.
 
#30 ·
Man, that stinks dude, go figure! It does it regilously at start-up in cold weather if you don't cycle the key, then when you take it there, no noise......LOL.

Well, as you said, at least it's on record that you noticed there was an issue. I guarantee you, based on what I've read, it's not the first time they have had this complaint, or the last.
 
#33 ·
I have not gotten the vtc actuator rattle in a while, and after 3,000 miles the oil looks somewhat dark... which is surprising because I used full synthethic and the engine is brand new.. The bright side is it now has 9,000 miles and the dipstick still reads full even when I do v-tec once a week merging onto the highway.

Unfortunately I have encounter another noise which is super annoying even when it is not extremely cold out... It is the starter sticking.. When you crank the CRV over it starts and then the starter grinds because it does not disengage fast enough..

I am debating if I should try cranking the CRV shorter rather then the normal way I crank a vehicle, which is wait until it fires up then move it over to the run position. I wonder if I crank it before it starts up and leave it on run if the starter will still crank it just enough to get the engine to run..

It went from this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR20baoXbo8 to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXWv5FoR4c :confused:

At this point I am hoping all is well. State inspection in 10 months.. might go ask dealer about it though I doubt I would want them to take apart the engine for the vtc actuator. Again it only does this at the first start after sitting overnight.. it is fine later in the day, or any other time I use it.
 
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