Boosting MPG using hydrogen

[simoncope]

Am fascinated by info avail here http://www.Water4Gas.com - have purchased the info & have started to build my kit. Next step is to install unit into my 1996 CRV...

Question: Do you know of anyone who has done this modification before on a Honda (let alone a CRV?). If so, +/- results?

If not, possible you think?

Look forward to your comments.

Thanks
Simon

[2RedV's]

Am fascinated by info avail here http://www.Water4Gas.com - have purchased the info & have started to build my kit. Next step is to install unit into my 1996 CRV...

Question: Do you know of anyone who has done this modification before on a Honda (let alone a CRV?). If so, +/- results?

If not, possible you think?

Look forward to your comments.

Thanks
SimonDon't be fascinated.

It is simply a water injection system in which you can also inject methanol.

Injecting water does not increase gas mileage or power, it cools the intake charge allowing you to advance your timing so as to control detonation/pre-ignition. These have been around since WWII when bomber pilots used water injection to help get a little more power out of the engines, at altitude. You will not be obtaining that much altitude unless you add too much water. Since the water doesn't burn, nor compress, too much water and you get the equivalent of hydro-lock, which will bend connecting rods, crack cylinder walls, blow holes in pistons... I think you get the point? :eek:

There is no hydrogen power involved, unless you count the hydrogen in the H2O. All water injection lets you do is increase the timing if non-turboed and if turboed, you can use higher compression ratio than normal for a turbo car since water provides a cooling effect when mixed with the gas/air mix. It helps to prevent pinging.

These things pop up every time that fuel prices rise. They are way overpriced for what they are. You can make your own for $20 with parts purchased at a hardware store, or you can buy water injection kits from summitracing.com.


ps - There is one nice side benefit. That small amount of water that gets added has a neat, cleaning effect in the valves and cylinder walls. Gets rid of any carbon buildup and deposits, but then again, so does a $6 bottle of Chevron Techron added to the fuel tank every year.

[Binky]

Am fascinated by info avail here http://www.Water4Gas.com - have purchased the info...

Question: Do you know of anyone who has done this modification before on a Honda (let alone a CRV?). If so, +/- results?


This is NOT new technology. There have been many false claims that by injecting HHO (H2O) chemical symbol for water, into the intake system that fuel economy would increase by rediculously high percentages. A friend installed such a system in his '69 Olds Cutlass back in 1977. The manufacturer claimed increased HP, improved MPG, and reduction in carbon buildup on the cylinder heads.

The only thing he could appreciate is that when he floored the gas - the rear tires smoked like a scalded dog... but then again, that Cutlass did that all the time when he drove it.

Don't you think if this technology was effective it would be employed in more vehicles to provide a marketing advantage?

David Hannum's comments are still relative today... "There's a sucker born every minute."

Caveat Emptor

[tsmithvt]

Don't buy a water injection system for the wrong reason (mpg or hp gains). As everyone else is telling you, it won't do either.

I have posted some under the hood pictures of my 1975 (30+ years old) International pickup. In most of the pictures you can see the water injection line going up to the top of the air cleaner cover. In one or two pictures you can see the red control unit mounted to the inside of the right fender well. The system was used only to cool the inlet charge and prevent detonation when the Nitrous Oxide injection system was in use. The Nitrous/fuel solenoids and fuel pressure regulator can be seen mounted on the driver's side fender well.

My point is that, as 2RedV's mentioned, this is NOT new technology and these systems are not particularly useful by themselves. They are most useful when supporting other systems like any forced induction system, Nitrous or just high compression engines on pump gas. If you do take full advantage of a water injection system, you will also be vulnerable to any malfunction in the system and that can be serious.

[2RedV's]

tsmithvt... That doesn't look like an AMC engine under the hood? What is it?

[tsmithvt]

tsmithvt... That doesn't look like an AMC engine under the hood? What is it?

The base engine is an International 345 cid truck engine. The original block, forged crank and heads were used but that's about all. The heads were reworked for 2.02" (from a IH 392) intake valves, ported and polished. Pistons and conrods are from ORD as is the valve train (cam, rockers, rods, lifters and springs). The intake is also from ORD and the carb is a 4160 Holley 4bbl.

The truck supports a race car and I got tired of people kidding me about my "Corn Binder" pickup.;)

[2RedV's]

Aha. The pics were too small for me to tell what it was, other than it wasn't one of the AMC's. I had a 73 IH Scout years ago with the 304 auto and one of my current toys is a Javelin with a highly built 360.

IH built vehicles the opposite of Honda. Honda offers a couple of "packages (or trim levels) and IH let you build the vehicle how you wanted it. If you wanted purple paint with green vinyl interior, that is what they built you. It was hard to ever find any 2 alike. Engine, trans, rear end, etc. were all custom - based upon what the buyer wanted.

[tsmithvt]

Aha. The pics were too small for me to tell what it was, other than it wasn't one of the AMC's. I had a 73 IH Scout years ago with the 304 auto and one of my current toys is a Javelin with a highly built 360.

IH built vehicles the opposite of Honda. Honda offers a couple of "packages (or trim levels) and IH let you build the vehicle how you wanted it. If you wanted purple paint with green vinyl interior, that is what they built you. It was hard to ever find any 2 alike. Engine, trans, rear end, etc. were all custom - based upon what the buyer wanted.

I remember them well. I had a 1962 Scout 80 (152 slant 4) 4 speed and a 1969 800A with the 304 and a 4 speed. Loved them both and they were pretty good off-road too. Do you remember the AMC Marlin? My mother had one (red and black) when I was in high school. I really think she bought it for me. I was Mr. Cool,:cool: for a while anyway. It's been a while.:rolleyes:

[2RedV's]

A 62 Scout? Wow. Small world. A friend had a 1961 with that little 4 cylinder and a snow plow! We made a bunch of money with that little thing in high school. Top speed was barely over 60 mph but it just didn't get stuck with a great set of snow tires on it. It also had vacuum wipers! What a mistake that was. If your foot was on the throttle, there was no vacuum to operate the wipers and since the engine was so small, you always had your foot deep into the throttle! The wipers only worked when you shifted... :eek:

[tsmithvt]

A 62 Scout? Wow. Small world. A friend had a 1961 with that little 4 cylinder and a snow plow! We made a bunch of money with that little thing in high school. Top speed was barely over 60 mph but it just didn't get stuck with a great set of snow tires on it. It also had vacuum wipers! What a mistake that was. If your foot was on the throttle, there was no vacuum to operate the wipers and since the engine was so small, you always had your foot deep into the throttle! The wipers only worked when you shifted... :eek:

I apologize to Simon (the OP) for hijacking his thread. I hope he got what what he needed. Well.....maybe not.:(

Back to memory lane.:) It sounds like your 61 had 4.88 axles in it like mine did. I won sizable bet with mine. A guy bet me that I couldn't put mine up against a tree and let it idle in gear, in 4WD and get out of it without the little four banger stalling. It dug itself into four nice holes but it didn't stall. Ah to be young and foolish again.:rolleyes:

[simoncope]

Hi guys,
there is two things I wanting to achieve.
1/ If possible increased MPG from the car.
2/ The engine lasts longer /less $$ spent on maintenance

From my understanding of the replies, I am NOT injecting water into the system, but Brown's gas (HHO or Hydroxy, Hydrogen-Oxygen) which is supplemental to gasoline. Not independently.

(I do not switch to water, the water and its Hydrogen-Oxygen products are used as a boost or "catalyst" for better combustion of gasoline. Not by itself.)

I am only using a SMALL amount of Hydrogen, compared to 100% Hydrogen cars.
I don't want to drive on 100% Hydrogen - I'm only interested in Hydrogen for
the purpose of boosting the poorly burning gasoline. Those small amounts of Hydrogen (more correctly Brown's gas) and water vapor COOL DOWN the engine and cause other effects such as less vibration, steam-cleaning old carbon deposits, etc.

The overall effect, in the long run, is less maintenance, less breakdowns, not more.

Would you agree?

Anyway, I am going to have a go - I will either waste $200 dollars and get no benefit, or I could waste $200 and get a stuffed engine, or I could get some savings.... I will provide the feedback as I do it - interested?

Regards and thanks for the comments. All are good - even the memory lanes ones :D

[tsmithvt]

OK.....You are not talking about water injection, exactly, but, hopefully, you realize that this is still very old technology (for the generation of welding gases) and the net gain has always been in doubt? The gains you make will almost certainly be canceled by the energy required by the electrolysis of water. In addition it sounds like you are in for a lot a engine/computer tweeking. I do wish you luck in your endeavor, however. Do let us know how it goes.:)

[simoncope]

OK, I have found a suitable place to install the unit and have been data logging my MPG (km per litre in my case) WITHOUT the unit turned on.
Once I finish my 3rd tank of petrol, I will then turn the unit on and measure again to see if any improvement in economy...

By the way, I am generating HHO gas, (not just water injection).

Nothing lost - nothing gained if I don't try.

Cheers
Simon
P.S. Photos coming soon.

[06whtcrv]

OK, I have found a suitable place to install the unit and have been data logging my MPG (km per litre in my case) WITHOUT the unit turned on.
Once I finish my 3rd tank of petrol, I will then turn the unit on and measure again to see if any improvement in economy...

By the way, I am generating HHO gas, (not just water injection).

Nothing lost - nothing gained if I don't try.

Cheers
Simon
P.S. Photos coming soon.
Are you generating HHO or HOH... or is it just plain dihydrous monoxide... it makes a big difference... Dihydrous Monoxide: The Colorless Menace Petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/spots350/petition.html)

[stanlam]

I FOUND THIS ON THE INTERNET, I DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE IT.....

Never buy the following, they are ALL SCAMS!!!!

Electric turbo/superchargers

Fuel Magnets

"hydrogen generators" The e-bay units. I can't believe people buy these things, they are paying over 100 dollars!!!

Tornado/spiralmax
The things that go in the intake tube to "spiral/tornado" the air...

Please make me a stickey!!

HERE'S THE LINK TO THE FULL ARTICLE......
TeamSwift • View topic - MPG SCAMS, Things NEVER TO BUY!! Sticky! (http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=17216)

[catsailr]

Just put a magnet on the fuel line. It is a lot cheaper and easier to install and has the same effect.

[Iaind1]

Question: Do you know of anyone who has done this modification before on a Honda (let alone a CRV?). If so, +/- results?

If not, possible you think?

Look forward to your comments.



Not on a Honda but aircraft applications,

Pre-charged Water Injection: Using compressed nitrogen as a propellant to fire water through an electric solenoid valve into a custom made 'injector'. (A sealed pipe with a couple of holes drilled in it) Note: No nitrogen is injected into the engine.

And Nitro-Alcohol fuel amongst other things...


I think there are main ideas to the 'kit', both have been explained here or are available on wikipedia.

Water Injection: The difference is that the water in subjected to vacuum from the engine to vaporise the water (Consider that the temperature to boil water deceases with altitude)

The purpose of water injection (/ cold water vapour) is to take heat out the engine through vaporisation.

IF and only IF enough heat can be removed, the air temperature will be reduced, so air density increases. With more ‘air’ in the cylinder more oxygen is available to mixes with fuel and produces more power.

BUT,

Also with a fine water vapour in the cylinder taking up space that could be filled with oxygen-fuel mixture you may lose power.

However

With a fine water vapour in the cylinder (packed around and in between oxygen and fuel molecules) the rate of combustion will be lower (Effectively an improvement in octane: i.e. a slower more controlled combustion). Which means someone could run a little more boost on the turbo (bad idea), a little more advance (pretty silly) or even a high compression ratio (CRAZY) to try to achieve a little more power. But more likely you will be able to able to extract similar power out of a little less fuel


Hydrogen + Oxygen Injection: Why can't things be called by there proper names?
Basically electrolysis, splitting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen… obviously a total waste of energy.

But…

If your alternator is driven by a belt directly from the engine, why not put it to use? As a mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen will burn a DAMN sight better than the regular fuel air mix and take up less space in the cylinder too? And we’ll let the lambda probe / oxygen sensor cut the fuel to keep the engine running right?

The thing is how much Hydrogen and Oxygen are you likely to generate?
I’ve got some large jars at home and Sodium and Potassium Hydroxide pellets, with a 3Kw I bet I could make the water look like it was boiling! –However I’ve done the above with 30watts and the bubbles basically too small to see! Looks a bit like fine stream of smoke but if you add washing up liquid and set fire to the big soup bubble it explodes with a really loud bang. :D

So basically it doesn’t work.

And using hydrogen as a fuel is a really bad idea because it creates too much heat.


Hi guys,
there is two things I wanting to achieve.
1/ If possible increased MPG from the car.
2/ The engine lasts longer /less $$ spent on maintenance

From my understanding of the replies, I am NOT injecting water into the system, but Brown's gas (HHO or Hydroxy, Hydrogen-Oxygen) which is supplemental to gasoline. Not independently.

(I do not switch to water, the water and its Hydrogen-Oxygen products are used as a boost or "catalyst" for better combustion of gasoline. Not by itself.)

I am only using a SMALL amount of Hydrogen, compared to 100% Hydrogen cars.
I don't want to drive on 100% Hydrogen - I'm only interested in Hydrogen for
the purpose of boosting the poorly burning gasoline. Those small amounts of Hydrogen (more correctly Brown's gas) and water vapor COOL DOWN the engine and cause other effects such as less vibration, steam-cleaning old carbon deposits, etc.

The overall effect, in the long run, is less maintenance, less breakdowns, not more.

Would you agree?

Anyway, I am going to have a go - I will either waste $200 dollars and get no benefit, or I could waste $200 and get a stuffed engine, or I could get some savings.... I will provide the feedback as I do it – interested?


I hope by also shooting down the two ideas I’ve answered you first question.

As for the second…Does anyone see a simple solution? Detune the engine: Decrease torque across the rev range (Lower BMAP), Decrease Piston and Valve speeds/accelerations, Install a restrictor plate in the air inlet system, use a very mild cam shaft…and get the engine re-mapped on an Eddy Current Rolling Road. (not some inertia type.)

Say if you have a $30,000??? I know a few people who build a super de-tuned car racing engine, most likely a 4.0 Rover V8 about 75hp at 2000rpm good enough?

But I think given you’ve got a Honda, if you look after it should last a very long time?

As rubbish about steam cleaning or less vibrations… come on

However I await to proven wrong, But I'll still argue with your science

[Broomhilda]

Just put a magnet on the fuel line. It is a lot cheaper and easier to install and has the same effect.


Can anyone tell me which of the 2 lines coming into the engine from the right is the fuel line? I received a fuel line magnet and would like to try it out on my 2008 but are unsure where to put it. Thanks.