Tow rating "rule of thumb" - Trailer Life mag

[RinconVTR]

Directly from Trailer Life mag:

"We recomend as a rule of thumb that you tow a trailer that is about 20% less than the trucks maximum tow rating"

"....to allow for extra passengers, cargo, and a margin for when you operate at higher altitudes"

"...as the engine loses about 3% of its power per every 1,000 feet of elevation gain"

"Hot weather also reduces air density, and therefore power."

[Tim Vance]

Interesting quote...do you have a link please?

I see that this pertains directly to operating at 'higher altitudes', but I'm curious as to what they consider higher altitudes?

We have consistently underloaded vehicles when they travel thru the Rockies, but there really aren't that many areas exceeding 5000 ft above sea level that those of us on the eastern seaboard travel thru....

I will bare this in mind if I'm planning any long distance trips out west tho...and I'm sure those members on the west coast are already accustomed to living there...:D

[RinconVTR]

Interesting quote...do you have a link please?

I see that this pertains directly to operating at 'higher altitudes', but I'm curious as to what they consider higher altitudes?

We have consistently underloaded vehicles when they travel thru the Rockies, but there really aren't that many areas exceeding 5000 ft above sea level that those of us on the eastern seaboard travel thru....

I will bare this in mind if I'm planning any long distance trips out west tho...and I'm sure those members on the west coast are already accustomed to living there...:D

There might be a link out there by now, but I took that quote directly from the mag itself. It was in the Q&A section of the January or February issue of TrailerLife. They issue a yearly

I have to say though, the artical does not directly pertain to any one reason to back off the ratings by 20%. They (and I quoted) a number of things to give a comfort factor for a good number of variances.

High altitude to me is anything lists "mount" or "mountain". And there's not a road in the mid-west that I consider "high altittude" for travel purposes.

Here's the link to their web site and tow ratings for all makes and models for many years.

Trailer Life Magazine: America's Number One RV Magazine (http://www.trailerlife.com/output.cfm?id=42175)

Trailer Life Magazine: America's Number One RV Magazine (http://www.trailerlife.com)

And here's a link to their 2008 Towing Guide...some specific V drivers need to read this!!!

http://www.trailerlife.com/digitaledition/DigitalTLTowGuide0801.pdf

[sleeksilver]

The 1500 pound rating is for an UNBRAKED trailer here. The G3 CR-V can tow 3000+ pounds in the rest of the world with the exact same suspension components, body/frame, and a less powerful engine with a braked trailer.

[RinconVTR]

The 1500 pound rating is for an UNBRAKED trailer here. The G3 CR-V can tow 3000+ pounds in the rest of the world with the exact same suspension components, body/frame, and a less powerful engine with a braked trailer.

Here we go again...

In the USA...I repeat...THE USA....Honda makes no remarks about trailer brakes and the CR-V tow rating at 1500lbs.

1500lbs is American Honda's max tow rating for the CR-V, period.

[2RedV's]

Here we go again...

In the USA...I repeat...THE USA....Honda makes no remarks about trailer brakes and the CR-V tow rating at 1500lbs.

1500lbs is American Honda's max tow rating for the CR-V, period.You are correct. American Honda does not make any remarks about trailer brakes but the fact is that the rest of the world gets a 3000 pound rating with their CR-V's as long as they use trailer brakes and there are no differences in suspension, brakes, etc. that would account for that difference.

[RinconVTR]

You are correct. American Honda does not make any remarks about trailer brakes but the fact is that the rest of the world gets a 3000 pound rating with their CR-V's as long as they use trailer brakes and there are no differences in suspension, brakes, etc. that would account for that difference.

Prove it.

And good luck not getting the laws attention pulling a 3,000 lbs trailer! You should see the cops look at me pulling an empty 3 place Triton ATV128-2. Police and people look at you like your insane.

And good luck using your reasoning in a court room, at least thats your claim American CR-V have lower towing limits.

And to that, I ask should we then double ALL Honda tow ratings??? Pilot can really tow 7,000lbs, Ridgeline can actually 10,000lbs? Since you claim Honda is so sensitive to American law suits and all, this must be true across the board. Right???

Stop preaching this high tow limit to people looking for honest advice.

Follow the recomended rating per the OEM...ALWAYS!!!

Thanks for playing.

[2RedV's]

Prove it.

And good luck not getting the laws attention pulling a 3,000 lbs trailer! You should see the cops look at me pulling an empty 3 place Triton ATV128-2. Police and people look at you like your insane.

And good luck using your reasoning in a court room, at least thats your claim American CR-V have lower towing limits.

And to that, I ask should we then double ALL Honda tow ratings??? Pilot can really tow 7,000lbs, Ridgeline can actually 10,000lbs? Since you claim Honda is so sensitive to American law suits and all, this must be true across the board. Right???

Stop preaching this high tow limit to people looking for honest advice.

Follow the recomended rating per the OEM...ALWAYS!!!

Thanks for playing.We are talking Cr-V's. I (and most others on this forum and others) know nothing of the Pilot and Ridgeline. I don't care what they can or cannot do.

Yes, one *should* follow the OEM recommendations. However, I as well as others, are simply pointing out that Europe R-V owners, with the same vehicle, have much higher tow ratings if they have the trailer equipped with trailer brakes. Does that not mean anything to you?

Europe has some some very strict towing laws as our European members can attest to and we have seen pictures of Euro-legal CR-V's towing rather large (for US standards) trailers.

Why are you so against people knowing any of this? You are on the verge of being psychotic on these tow limits.

[jpod]

This is an important utility issue because most of the things someone might wish to tow with a vehicle like the CRV probably weigh between 1000 and 3000 lbs.

Its an important safety issue because a trailer wreck can be deadly.

Our discussions and magazine articles can be useful, but Honda created a potential safety issue by publishing two substantially different towing specs for the same vehicle. And only Honda can eliminate the potentially dangerous ambiguity they have created.

Honda should publish a single specification.

JPO

[RinconVTR]

This is an important utility issue because most of the things someone might wish to tow with a vehicle like the CRV probably weigh between 1000 and 3000 lbs.

Its an important safety issue because a trailer wreck can be deadly.

Our discussions and magazine articles can be useful, but Honda created a potential safety issue by publishing two substantially different towing specs for the same vehicle. And only Honda can eliminate the potentially dangerous ambiguity they have created.

Honda should publish a single specification.

JPO

THATS EXACTLY RIGHT...and very well stated.

And until honda does just that, we in America should be following American tow ratings because at this point and time we do not have a statement from Honda why they have two different ratings.

There is a reason, but all we have right now are assumptions based on comparisons and internet forum discussions. And that doesnt hold any "weight".

[Tim Vance]

Are we going to do this again?

Why is that you, and you alone are the 'voice of reason' RinconVTR?

If all you are going to keep saying is that Honda USA says that it's their recommendation, then fine you've said it.

So Honda US has made their recommendations. Thank you, I can read. I've read what they recommend. I can also choose not to follow them. It's my choice.

We've heard you repeating the same mantra over and over again, and done little else but ridicule everyone else's post on the topic. The only constant in your tirades is you. Have you not noticed that anyone actually agrees with you? Or supports your opinion?

Fine.
Enough is enough. If YOU cannot provide worthwhile advise (other than what you have already stated) then kindly keep it to yourself. You are not doing anyone here a service. It has gotten to the point that no one else can post without being blasted by you.

[2RedV's]

I guess everyone should have more closely followed Ford's recommendations on tire pressure in the Ford Explorer? That was certainly wrong.

[Black Pearl]

I am going to put on my kevlar vest and riot helmet and only mention this:

From page 245 of the 07 owner's manual:

"Load Limits
Total Trailer Weight: The maximum allowable weight of the trailer and everything in or on it must not exceed 1,500 lbs. (680 Kg). Towing a load that is too heavy can seriously affect your vehicles handling and performance. It can also damage the engine and drivetrain."

I don't tow nothing and really have no interest in this thread other than to enjoy the fireworks, however, if you read the above statement, you are putting yourself at grand legal risk if you were to exceed the weight and get into an accident.

Facing manslaughter charges though negligeance is a far worse fate than simply being found at fault for accident. There is not a prosecutor or tort lawyer in the land that wouldn't have a field day with the above statement.

The quoted passage is not a recommendation, it is a load restriction imposed on the vehicle by the manufacturer. I would advise extreme caution regarding the arguments being presented here.

[suprgnat]

Here we go again...

In the USA...I repeat...THE USA....Honda makes no remarks about trailer brakes and the CR-V tow rating at 1500lbs.

1500lbs is American Honda's max tow rating for the CR-V, period.

Cut-&-pasted from the '07 Owner's Manual

"Honda requires that any trailer with
a total weight of 1,000 lbs (455 kg) or
more be equipped with its own
electric or surge-type brakes.

If you choose electric brakes, be
sure they are electronically actuated.
Do not attempt to tap into your
vehicle’s hydraulic system. No
matter how successful it may seem,
any attempt to attach trailer brakes
to your vehicles hydraulic system
will lower braking effectiveness and
create a potential hazard.

See your trailer dealer or rental
agency for more information on
installing electric brakes."

[Black Pearl]

Well the above quoted material makes for some interesting fodder in this argument. It is on page 247 under Trailer Brakes.

Thanks for posting this information.

[Tim Vance]

Thanks Black Pearl. My manual say 'should not', but, IMO it's semantics...

The disagreement is on what Honda US is basing their 'restriction' on. Honda US has consistently understated the towing capacity of the CRV and Element in the US, and refuses to say why. The same vehicles in other parts of the world have higher stated towing ratings.

As far as the fear mongering goes - we are all adults in a free society. I have the right to make my own decisions, based upon my experience, and all information available to me. For anyone to suggest that I will be charged or sued, because I tow a trailer that is heavier than the manufactures rating is simply wrong. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about. I do this for a living. There is not a cop in North America that can charge me with this offense, because it simply does not exist.

(DMV.ORG - The Unofficial Guide to the DMV (http://www.dmv.org/))

I can be charged for exceeding the weight class of my license - having a vehicle/towed vehicle combination that exceeds 26,000 lbs (not likely with any Honda vehicle) if I only have a 'regular' drivers license.

I also cannot drive a vehicle so loaded, either with property or people, that I cannot control it, see ahead, or to the sides of my vehicle.
I also cannot carry anything in or on a passenger vehicle which extends beyond the fenders on the left side or more than six inches beyond the fenders on the right side. A load extending more than four feet from the back of the vehicle must display a 12-inch red or fluorescent orange square flag or two red lights at night.

So, if I overload my trailer, and can't control it, then I can be charged with Dangerous Driving - not having proper care and control of my vehicle. If I overload my vehicle, and cause an accident, then I can be charged with Careless Driving - not having proper care and control, resulting in property damage or bodily injury.

So yes Black Pearl, you are partially correct - it's not a good thing to be in an accident, regardless of whether or not you are towing a trailer - but you would be just as liable, if you didn't have a trailer, had an empty trailer, or an improperly loaded trailer, and you caused the accident!

Now, and here's the big proviso - I have never said for anyone to disregard Honda's warnings or ratings! I have simply questioned what they are basing their ratings on. I have been to 2 separate Honda Manufacturing Facilities, and taken tours of both. I have spoken to Honda's design engineers, and they won't say why Honda North America has different ratings, other than it's a Corporate decision. I won't go into that...

What I have said, is that as a reasonably intelligent person, who has done my research, and done extensive personal testing with many different trailers and weight combinations, and with many years of experience, I am perfectly comfortable towing my 2000lb trailer. I operate my vehicle responsibly, with due consideration for what I am doing, and have never caused an accident ( I have been hit 3 times, in over 27 years of driving, but only minor fender benders).

All I am saying, is that ppl have the right to hear from other ppls experience, do their own research, and make their own decisions. I object to being flamed for expressing an opinion that differs from someone else's. I won't be censored by intimidation.

[Black Pearl]

Obviously, you have done your research. Again, I have no interest in this thread other than enjoying the fireworks, and I really have no interest in becoming a beligerant in this particular battle. I fully agree that it is doubtful that a cop will ever stop someone because a trailer is overloaded, unless fearfully so. However that was not my point. My point is that if you were involved in an accident, and heaven forbid, there was a fatality you could be putting yourself in legal and civil jeopardy by having a trailer loaded beyond the maximum load capacity stated by the manufacturer. You may not even be the cause of the accident, but if your trailer is the cause of the fatality or serious injury you could be in dire difficulties.

In my manual there is no nicety recommendation. It is stated quite bluntly as a restriction. I didn't quote the warning box immediately prior to the load limit but it speaks of death and serious injury. Fear mongering perhaps, but I am certain that a lawyer would lick his chops. I can't address why Honda down rates the capacity but if I was a betting man it is to reduce liability in a society geared to litagation.

I don't believe that you are accusing me, but just to make it clear, I did not flame nor censor you.

The only thing that I would like to point out is that while it may be perfectly safe to tow up to some given amount, (and I am not agreeing that it is nor disagreeing--frankly I don't care) one is putting themselves at risk legally if an accident occurs. Prosecutors and tort lawyers do not seek justice, they seek to win. Again I would advise caution to all regarding these arguments.

[Tim Vance]

I feel you've hit the nail on the head Blackpearl! (and no, I'm definitely not directing anything towards you :))

Everyone who can read between the lines can plainly see that the only reason Honda understates the tow ratings on their vehicles in North America is because they are afraid of someone suing them for what is clearly their own responsibility, or getting pulled into a lawsuit because someone 'can't read what's written in the manual'. (does this remind anyone as to why there are warnings on coffee cups - 'Caution, contents may be hot' ???)

To put a fine point to it though, one of my points is that legally there is nothing stopping you from exceeding a manufactures load ratings for a vehicle or trailer. The Highway Traffic Act is actually pretty specific in regards to maximum load ratings, but they specifically pertain to max weight per axle, not the load rating of a vehicle or trailer.

But, and as you pointed out Blackpearl, there are actually two buts:

1. You are legally responsible for any damages resulting from an accident you caused, and
2. You can be guaranteed you will get your butt sued big time, (in addition to any charges the legal authorities may bring against you) not only for causing the accident, but if it's determined that your trailer was even 1lb over manufactures ratings, or you exceeded your vehicles tow rating, or didn't inflate your tires to the correct pressure, or haven't changed your oil according to manufactures specs, etc etc, then you are giving a lawyer (retained by anyone else involved in the accident) more rope to hang you with...

So, my advise to all of you, sitting on the fence, trying to decide if you really should pull that 1600 lb trailer with your CRV....

Do your research. Judge your abilities. Experiment. Search your soul. And make your own informed decision.

[RinconVTR]

I feel you've hit the nail on the head Blackpearl! (and no, I'm definitely not directing anything towards you :))

Everyone who can read between the lines can plainly see that the only reason Honda understates the tow ratings on their vehicles in North America is because they are afraid of someone suing them for what is clearly their own responsibility, or getting pulled into a lawsuit because someone 'can't read what's written in the manual'. (does this remind anyone as to why there are warnings on coffee cups - 'Caution, contents may be hot' ???)

To put a fine point to it though, one of my points is that legally there is nothing stopping you from exceeding a manufactures load ratings for a vehicle or trailer. The Highway Traffic Act is actually pretty specific in regards to maximum load ratings, but they specifically pertain to max weight per axle, not the load rating of a vehicle or trailer.

But, and as you pointed out Blackpearl, there are actually two buts:

1. You are legally responsible for any damages resulting from an accident you caused, and
2. You can be guaranteed you will get your butt sued big time, (in addition to any charges the legal authorities may bring against you) not only for causing the accident, but if it's determined that your trailer was even 1lb over manufactures ratings, or you exceeded your vehicles tow rating, or didn't inflate your tires to the correct pressure, or haven't changed your oil according to manufactures specs, etc etc, then you are giving a lawyer (retained by anyone else involved in the accident) more rope to hang you with...

So, my advise to all of you, sitting on the fence, trying to decide if you really should pull that 1600 lb trailer with your CRV....

Do your research. Judge your abilities. Experiment. Search your soul. And make your own informed decision.


Logical, and good realistic advice. Not sure why I've been bashed me so much, but whatever.

Relax guys...this IS a INTERNET forum.
Good advice and bad advice is always present!


BlackPearl, best posts of the entire thread.



I am going to add something from the Honda manuals which someone else posted about trailer brakes.

Here are additional quotes from Honda OEM manuals:

"The maximum allowable weight of the trailer and everything in or on it must not exceed 1,500 lbs."

Yep...ok....got it....everyone’s seen that enough.

HOWEVER! The 1500 rating does NOT have an "*" stating the rating is only good with trailer brakes in the manual NOR is it stated or shown on their very own web site under "specifications". You'll also see the CR-V's rating posted in many articles and various auto web sites, without mention of trailer brakes.

Honda separately and on different pages of the manual (really sneaky if you ask me) says they "require" trailer brakes for towing over 1,000 lbs. They make this blanket statement on most of their models. I believe the Pilot and Ridgeline are the exceptions.

No where does it state the CR-V's rating is 1,000 & 1,500 with trailer brakes. It's sort of can or worms in itself.

So, IMO, if anything is overkill and anti-law suit, its the statement about brakes for any 1k+ trailer. Because realistically, its VERY uncommon to add brakes to a 1,000-1,500 capacity trailer, with exception to very few states law.

I think, and it seems that in most cases, this (purposely made separate) "requirement" in the manual has been disregarded by many in the industry.

For the record...I'm not arguing anything. Each point was clearly stated in quotes or clearly IMO.