Cold Air intakes and low restriction air filters

[2RedV's]

Just released, from the March 2008 Honda Service News, is this technician article on after-market cold air intakes (CAI) and low restriction air filters.

I have also placed the text of the other article that they reference, at the bottom of this post.

Remember that these articles are intended for actual dealership technicians.

Honda Service News 03-08 (http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/a080300.PDF)

MIL On With DTC P0171 or P0172? Check for an Aftermarket Air Intake
Currently Applies To: ’03–08 Accords, ’06–08 Civics, ’07–08 CR-Vs, ’07–08 Elements, and ’07–08 Odysseys

Got a vehicle in your shop with the MIL on and either DTC P0171 (fuel system too lean) or DTC P0172
(fuel system too rich)? Check to see if the vehicle has an aftermarket air intake system. If it does, you’ve
probably found the culprit.
Aftermarket air intake systems can throw off the MAF sensor, causing either of these DTCs to set. Even
worse, they can cause serious engine damage, which is not covered by warranty! (For more info, take a
look at “Cold Air Intake Systems and Low-Restriction Air Filters: A Word to the Wise” in the April ’05 issue
of ServiceNews.)
The airflow characteristics of these aftermarket systems can vary from one to the other. The MAF sensor
provides feedback to the PCM to get the proper air/fuel ratio. If the long term fuel trim exceeds the
specified limits, the PCM will set one of those DTCs. Check out the Advanced Diagnostics in ISIS for the
specific DTC limits of the vehicle that you’re working on.
If the vehicle’s got an aftermarket air intake system, have the service advisor talk with your customer. He
or she can either have the air intake system returned to stock (and return later if the DTC comes back), or
he or she can take up this problem with the maker of the aftermarket air intake system.
Of course, if the vehicle already has a stock air intake system . . . then it’s high time to troubleshoot.


Here is the older article that was referenced;above.

Honda Service News 04-05 (http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/a050400.PDF)

Cold Air Intake Systems and Low-Restriction Air Filters:

A Word to the Wise

Cold air intake systems and low-restriction air
filters are hot aftermarket accessories. Popular
among the import tuner crowd, these items may
improve engine performance by letting the
engine breathe more deeply, reducing the intake
air temperature, and cutting down on weight. And
for that all-important sound when you wind up
the engine, cold air intake systems help produce a
deep, throaty tone.
Stock air intake systems are designed to clean the
intake air, minimize intake noise, and keep water
from getting into the intake tract, all the while
putting out the most horsepower and torque.
Although cold air intake systems and lowrestriction
air filters kick up engine performance a
notch, they also have their dark side. They can
really mess up the engine, and that’s not covered
by warranty!
With cold air intake systems, you run the risk of
engine damage from hydrolocking if you drive in
wet weather or plow through standing water.
These systems are usually designed to draw air
from the bottom of the engine compartment or
from the front of the radiator where the air is cold
and dense. The air filter used in these systems
doesn’t sit in an air box, so water that gets sucked
into the filter gets sucked right into the engine.
When enough water gets into the engine, the
piston can’t fully compress the air/fuel mixture
(water doesn’t compress) so it stops before
reaching top dead center (TDC). Even though the
piston stops, the crankshaft just keeps turning
from inertia. As a result, the connecting rod bends
and gets shorter. With each compression and
power stroke, the connecting rod flexes until it
eventually fails from metal fatigue.
With low-restriction air filters, you run the risk of
premature engine wear and contamination. Some
of these filters just don’t work as well as stock air
filters do. Microscopic debris can get past the
filter, causing premature wear of the pistons,
piston rings, cylinders, and valves. It can also foul
up the throttle body and the components of the
intake manifold runner control (IMRC), intake
manifold tuning (IMT), and idle air control (IAC)
systems.
So what’s the bottom line here? Tell your
customers they’re taking a really big risk if they
run the vehicle with a cold air intake system or a
low-restriction air filter. Engine damage caused by
these items isn’t covered by warranty, and that
could take a big bite out of their pocketbook.

.

[tsmithvt]

Thanks 2RedV's. Every time another nail gets put in the coffin, I think "OK that's it. Everyone should be convinced." Lets see if input from the horses mouth makes a difference. :rolleyes: Thanks again; good info.:)

[2RedV's]

A CAI has a purpose - on a car that is raced and where the owner expects an eventual engine rebuild. Same thing for filters like the K&N - which I actually have on two of my older muscle cars. However, They are rarely driven and the filters are cleaned 2x a year which means that maybe 1000 miles gets put onto the filter before a cleaning. I will not put them on my daily drivers, including my diesel pickup truck.

[lizzurd]

Thanks for the info Red. A few members over at the EOC are having problems after installing aftermarket intakes and this should be of interest.

[StunGunna]

Thank you so much Red, for these wonderful pieces of info. I have flirted with the idea of the cold air intake and now I am done. I will not bring this up again.

I am satisfied with the K&N air filter I got and will still look into doing my skunk 2 intake manifold and the Dynaflow muffler/catback upgrade I had intended, but that will probably be it for the engine/exhaust mods I will be doing. Don't really wanna mess up a good thing anyway.

Thanks again, all the wonderful ideas I see on the boards has got my mind just spinning with fantasies that reality wont let me ever acheive. :rolleyes:

[illegal]

the sensors must be more sensitive on those year honda's because the b series never has an issue with this. (as you can see by the years and models stated, so the gen 1 is fine :) )

[StunGunna]

:D Ur tempting me Illegal.... ur tempting me man!!!

Yeah I think I saw the rig u did yours up to and it looked pretty awesome. How are u doing on HP gains? Please let me know, maybe u can hook it up for me. Here is what I use Snowfox for:
(A) Commuting and travel
(B) OffRoad fun (Not extreme or too often)
(C) Pleasure driving and personal indulgences in speed

So, what I am looking for is decent gains in HP and fuel economy, that wont put a big ass hole in my pocket. Not looking to win any hotrod car awards or send my rocket to the moon, so any advice and price ranges would be helpful for this mod newbie. Thanks man :)

[illegal]

in my experience decent whp gains, and fuel economy do not go hand in hand. You either get great fuel mileage, OR go fast, usually not both. I dont want to guess on hp gains, I'm a dyno guy myself. Even on a dyno, you have to remember not to look at total whp gains, but gains throughout the powerband.

[StunGunna]

and that makes sense. Don't know much about it all. Always wished I did. I can see some late night reading and researching in my future. Thanks.

[88civicb16]

Only thing that makes me scratch my head is the civic's and rsx's are handling the cold airs fine. I have cold air on two of three of my cars, and i haven't had problems. Just makes me me go hmmm...

[GTCB-chris]

yeah, if you plan on going off road, no cold air intake, i just got hydrolock. not fun

[illegal]

if it wont start at all now, you might be looking at a new motor.

[Jwood70]

in my experience decent whp gains, and fuel economy do not go hand in hand. You either get great fuel mileage, OR go fast, usually not both. I dont want to guess on hp gains, I'm a dyno guy myself. Even on a dyno, you have to remember not to look at total whp gains, but gains throughout the powerband.


I beg to differ. The summer that my Mom got her most recent CR-V, She asked what could be done to increase the already good mileage. So, My friend and I bolted in a short ram CAI. This has netted around 2-4 mpg. I dont know the hard numbers on power, but I know that it has better throttle response.

Now, this car sees mainly highway miles and is averaging around 31(+/- 1) mpg with cruse set and hilly highway.

I have a short ram on my VR6 GTi and I see an average of 32 mpg highway, and know that I have gained about 6hp over the stock air box.

[12sec_tC]

A CAI is a fuel mod, you might net 1-2 whp on a dyno no more unless you have some high boost turbo engine and the stock restrictive intake.

You will see a decent miliage increase though since your giving the air a smoother more straight path to the engine most of the gains are just from more volume compressing the air a bit the TB is still only going to aloow a certain amount of air into the car so it wont lean it out but you will get a bit denser air with a bit more combustion power, but over all itll help fuel miliage

[illegal]

I beg to differ. The summer that my Mom got her most recent CR-V, She asked what could be done to increase the already good mileage. So, My friend and I bolted in a short ram CAI. This has netted around 2-4 mpg. I dont know the hard numbers on power, but I know that it has better throttle response.

Now, this car sees mainly highway miles and is averaging around 31(+/- 1) mpg with cruse set and hilly highway.

I have a short ram on my VR6 GTi and I see an average of 32 mpg highway, and know that I have gained about 6hp over the stock air box.

Like I said, I was refering to decent whp gains, not 2-6. More air, means more fuel. Air=hp. So for decent mods to get more whp, like 20+ over stock, you would be looking at less fuel economy. My second to last b series set up all motor was maybe 20mpg, and the last one, which was almost stock (to me) was maybe 26mpg. Stock was over 30mpg.

[Jwood70]

Everyone has different definitions for what decent is. Most bolt on mods on their own, will not see (using your definition of decent) decent HP gains. But you do a few simple mods and you will end up with a 10-15 hp over stock gain.

[electric V]

But in order to get 10-15 HP you would need to get new headers, a new exhaust, cold air intake/short ram intake, and probably a knew throttle body, and chip. Together these would give around 15-20 my guess so would it be better bang for the buck (dollar to horsepower ratio) to spend it on a turbo or a bolt on supercharger than to do the small stuff?

[Jwood70]

But in order to get 10-15 HP you would need to get new headers, a new exhaust, cold air intake/short ram intake, and probably a knew throttle body, and chip. Together these would give around 15-20 my guess so would it be better bang for the buck (dollar to horsepower ratio) to spend it on a turbo or a bolt on supercharger than to do the small stuff?

There are a lot of things you need to do besides throwing a turbo or a S/C on a car. To push more than a few pounds of boost, you will need to re-build the engine. This is not cheap. The pistons, rings, everything is costly. In the long term, it also has more chance of failure.

While it may seem expensive at first, bolt-ons are cheaper in the long run if you use good quality parts and proper installation.

A turbo or S/C will need to have the stock computer re programed and that cost money. There are a lot of little costs that go with forced induction that will end up pushing the price up.

And most people that go the way of force induction will end up doing full bolt-ons anyway.

[electric V]

I guess that I would rather have 80+ horsepower added onto my V than. even with the increased risk but than again my stance on the situation doesn't really count because eventually I will have 4 electric motors (one directly equipt to each wheel) that will be the test of pure power. has anyone seen a burnout of a vehicle in 4WD?

[12sec_tC]

Like I said, I was refering to decent whp gains, not 2-6. More air, means more fuel. Air=hp. So for decent mods to get more whp, like 20+ over stock, you would be looking at less fuel economy. My second to last b series set up all motor was maybe 20mpg, and the last one, which was almost stock (to me) was maybe 26mpg. Stock was over 30mpg.

yeah but overall an intake is a mod that looks good and makes a nifty little sound, overall it doesnt do much until you start pegging MAFs

But in order to get 10-15 HP you would need to get new headers, a new exhaust, cold air intake/short ram intake, and probably a knew throttle body, and chip. Together these would give around 15-20 my guess so would it be better bang for the buck (dollar to horsepower ratio) to spend it on a turbo or a bolt on supercharger than to do the small stuff?

you can see 20 hp easy with headerback exhaust, intake and a chip or piggyback, slapping on a turbo or s/c is going to run you in the 4-5k range not counting labor if you cant do it yourself, and tuning costs, as well as unless you want to push more than 7psi your going to need pistons, rods, cams would also be a worth while expenditure so springs and retainers. if you going for just a little pep on the street NA bolt ons and a tune is all you need, i mean with crank pulleys, and a bit of timing adjustment with ported heads and a halfshafted TB as wellas an intake manifold youd see really nice numbers on any car and be in the 2.5-3k area

[electric V]

4-5k on a turbo set-up. That is a ton of money to put into a fairly used vehicle (any vehicle more than 6yrs old). Well I would probably spend 10k by converting my V to electric with the design that I want and my V is almost 11 yrs old. After everything that I do to it preformance wise it would be like a new car though:D.

[Jwood70]

I guess that I would rather have 80+ horsepower added onto my V than. even with the increased risk but than again my stance on the situation doesn't really count because eventually I will have 4 electric motors (one directly equipt to each wheel) that will be the test of pure power. has anyone seen a burnout of a vehicle in 4WD?

Yes, Its super sweet. But I have also seen someone do a burnout in a AWD and destroy the transmission.

[electric V]

I will custon build the entire vehicle from the ground up. There will be no tranny to deal with in my electric V. The transmissions eat up too much power from the electric motors. I just hope I don't eat up the tires and destroy my rims:p. That was a problem on the Wrightspeed X1 prototype electric car.

[Jwood70]

its all in how you drive it. There is a guy that took a mk I gti and he converted it to electric. he has no problem with tire wear.

[electric V]

They built a govenor into the X1 to help mitigate the tirewear from standing starts. I wouldn't do that:D

[Jwood70]

that just sounds like a way to increase costs.... Tires are not cheap. Not good tires anyway.

[12sec_tC]

I will custon build the entire vehicle from the ground up. There will be no tranny to deal with in my electric V. The transmissions eat up too much power from the electric motors. I just hope I don't eat up the tires and destroy my rims:p. That was a problem on the Wrightspeed X1 prototype electric car.

you would have no acceleration and those motors have a max you would get over say 40mph, you need a tranny and a single motor, your idea is ok in theory but just isnt praticle at all

[electric V]

The car is going to be a racing SUV. I ambuilding it from the ground up it will be a fun toy. I am going to make it lightweight, fast, and strong (suspension wise). It will be a total pace setter. Michelen has used a similar technology for years by testing their tires but I have no clue what their rigs looke like. I will have to custom fabricate everything myself. One motor for each wheel, just a few batteries = drag truck.

Ya it would be difficult to get a CRV to lose weight to be a practical daily driver because the lead aid bateries are heavy.and the V would end up wieghing roughly about 750-1000lbs more!

What is my username supposed to mean?

[12sec_tC]

yeah but michlen uses a free spinning system it has no need to make ample power. and get something like braille batters that way 12 pounds each and have around 2500-3500 CCA. I can see it being done but an engine per tire with no central transmission to sync the system is going to be a hard one to work

[electric V]

I just need a controller, bateries, and motors. It shuld be a fairly easy plug and play for testing. But the fabrication would be hard and I would need a 50/50 weight distribution.

Just a big remote control car.

[12sec_tC]

getting all four motors to run im sync will be the hardest part

[Jwood70]

I'd listen to him, He is an engineer (in training).

[electric V]

getting the motors to run in complete harmony will be very dificult, but they don't need to be in the car for me to get them singing in their electric screwdriver harmony. The ardest part would be I need two to run farwards and two to run in reverse in order to get the whole car moving foreward.

I have a book that gives me a picture of what I need and what I need to do. The book is very out dated because it is from 1997.

There is a company that makes kits that bolt right onto a Gen 1 Vee-Dub bug, Ford Fiesta, and the Geo Metro but it is one motor that bolts right into the driveshaft. It is the easiest kit but with the least amount of payoff.

and if we put this all together cold air intakes are used for.....:p

[12sec_tC]

getting the motors to run in complete harmony will be very dificult, but they don't need to be in the car for me to get them singing in their electric screwdriver harmony. The ardest part would be I need two to run farwards and two to run in reverse in order to get the whole car moving foreward.

I have a book that gives me a picture of what I need and what I need to do. The book is very out dated because it is from 1997.

There is a company that makes kits that bolt right onto a Gen 1 Vee-Dub bug, Ford Fiesta, and the Geo Metro but it is one motor that bolts right into the driveshaft. It is the easiest kit but with the least amount of payoff.

and if we put this all together cold air intakes are used for.....:p

why would two need to go in reverse? since they are on opposite sides of the car is the only thing I can think of for that, and in that case you are def going to want gearing in the car, or rebuild the motor so your drive axle coes out so the motor is going forward. if your doing in in a CRV, you could pull the engine and place the front two motors over the front wheels then centralize them at with a high gear tranny like a 4.26 or higher final gearing, then run a longer driveshaft to the central point and put something like a 2.73 pinon gear in the rear to equal out the rear motors that way they will be stable and the fact that 2 are running backwards wont give you any problems since your driveshaft is still going counter clockwise

[electric V]

I worded my sentence incorrectly. What I was trying to saw was a controler would have a four motors spinning right (if it is facing you) for forwards and left for backwards. So the motors on the right side of the V would need to be spinnign to the right and the ones on the left of the V would have to be spinning left. This way the whole car would move forward.

I know that having a driveshaft, and a tranny will make the build a hell of a lot easier but why carry the extra wieght and there is a serious loss of power when It gets transfered from the motor to any type of medium (e.g. the tranny) than to the drive wheels.

I just want to break the sound barrier.

[12sec_tC]

I worded my sentence incorrectly. What I was trying to saw was a controler would have a four motors spinning right (if it is facing you) for forwards and left for backwards. So the motors on the right side of the V would need to be spinnign to the right and the ones on the left of the V would have to be spinning left. This way the whole car would move forward.

I know that having a driveshaft, and a tranny will make the build a hell of a lot easier but why carry the extra wieght and there is a serious loss of power when It gets transfered from the motor to any type of medium (e.g. the tranny) than to the drive wheels.

I just want to break the sound barrier.

well if you have no gear its going to kill you. if your going for speed you would need a long gear so it would be like starting in fourth so the engines would be just inching off the line and acceleration would just not be there, and if you wanted acceleration you would be at like 30 and red lining your engines, gearing is super important

[electric V]

Think of a screw driver. When you press the trigger all the way down does it take a while for the drill bit to get up too speed? NO, The electric motors would just have a full throttle response.

The honda FCX clairity only has one forward drive gear (I think I read this in C&D):confused:

In google vidieos look up Wright Speed X1 protorype electric Car

[12sec_tC]

Think of a screw driver. When you press the trigger all the way down does it take a while for the drill bit to get up too speed? NO, The electric motors would just have a full throttle response.

The honda FCX clairity only has one forward drive gear (I think I read this in C&D):confused:

In google vidieos look up Wright Speed X1 protorype electric Car

both the tesla roadster and the wrightspeed x1 have gearing even if it is a single gear like in the x1's case it has a really high gear for fast acceleration the reason it can hit 112 is because it revs to 13k+rpm but it still has to have that gear to put power to the ground, and on the drill thing it doesnt need gears it gets to a certain RPM and holds since the bit spins as fast as the motor if you did that in a car youd max power and be stuck at like 35mph unless you had ridicuously high revs and 4 motors all without any type of gearing with high revs would just demolish tires since your wheels would spin at 13000 rpm just like the motor it would be uncontrollable if it even was able to catch traction . All motors electric or fuel have a rev limit gearing allows you to reuse this rev band over and over again and limits tire rotation so with a 4.26 gear ration for example for ever single rotation of the tires the driveshaft (or input shaft) would spin 4.26 times this enables your tires to actually move you

[GTCB-chris]

**** the enviroment im staying gas