Honda Accord EXL 2008 TPMS

[chevyguy61]

I have been told by a Honda Dealership that on the 2008 Accord, the TPM System is linked to the traction control system. If one installs winter tires and steel rims without TPMs, the only immediate effect will be that the TPM light will come on. However, if in the course of the winter, the automatic traction control system is activated, then the troubles start. I am told that once the traction control is activated, the first thing it looks for after it is called upon is tire pressure. If there are no TPMs, then it sees no tire air pressure and then the vehicle is governed at 5 miles per hour max until the system gets reset...at the dealer. The guy telling me this actually did it with a straight face and seemed to be in earnest, ut it certainly sounds like a crock to me. Has anyone heard of this out there? I always change over my own winter tires, and I truly object to being forced to go back to the dealer every spring and fall to change them just because they need to reset, re-program...the TPM system. The cost is one thing, the extreme inconvenience is another. For someone who monitors tire pressure quite regularly, this is really an imposition.

Would really appreciate input if anyone knows about this.

[Radar24]

At first read I assumed you had a CR-V. I do not know much about the Accord other than not having RT 4WD what applies to the CR-V may apply to the Accord too. I refuse to accept that Honda would design anything that impractical.

Since there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about these issues as it applies to the CR-V and I already wrote it, here goes.

I have the CR-V '08 factory shop manual and I have not come across anything to that affect (locking the car in a 5MPH mode to be reset only at a dealer). Even for 2WD which for all intents and purposes the CR-V may have the same system as in the Accord. If by chance Honda did screw up, chances are these systems are reprogrammable via the OBDII interface. As a matter of fact that might be how one basic controller design is modified to work on most of the entire line of Honda vehicles. It makes a lot of sense economically and may not be that difficult to implement via software. I have no knowledge that Honda is indeed doing that. I’ll stop rambling…

It sounds like the SM or whoever told you this does not understand the TPMS and TCS. Or is confused with the VSA/TCS on another vehicle (the Accord does have VSA?)! Or you misunderstood what he said as this can easily go over anyone’s head. Or I understand it much less than I thought. :confused:

First of all the TCS (Traction Control System) on the CR-V is integral to the VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist).

Completely independent to the TCS, the TPMS sensors have unique IDs. The TPMS has to be reset to read the new sensor IDs of the alternate set of wheels. This cost approximately $100 at a dealer. If no sensors are detected or one malfunctions, the VSA is forced on and cannot be turned off. Other than the TPMS light always on and not being able to turn off the VSA those are the only drawback that I am aware off. So what problems can you have by not being able to turn off the VSA?

Per the FSM:
“When a drive wheel loses traction on a slippery road surface and starts to spin, the VSA modulator-control unit applies brake pressure to the spinning wheel, and sends an engine torque control request (for less throttle) to the PCM (Power Control Module) to slow the spinning wheel, and keep traction.”

I was not even aware there is such a thing as TCS. The salesman actually told me there was none.

How TCS and ABS work in a nutshell:
If a wheel is turning faster than it should based on the wheel speed sensor inputs, it may indicate loss of traction. The appropriate brake is applied to achieve stability via the VSA modulator-control unit.

In ABS it is the opposite; if a wheel is turning too slow it indicates wheel slip or locked-up wheel so the brake is pulsed off/on/off in a rapid cycle to achieve the amount of slip resulting in a minimum stopping distance. It also allows steering under slippery conditions so you can avoid hitting an object versus without ABS continuing in a straight line and hitting the object.

Now the TPMS interfaces with or is one of the inputs to the VSA/TCS. Without a functioning TPMS the VSA is always on and cannot be turned off as the system is designed by Honda. From what I have read under certain conditions the VSA can cause traction problems on a slippery surface. Sort of like a Catch-22. Turning the VSA off might help but you can’t.

As I partially understand the problem with RT 4WD if the front wheels are slipping on ice (turning to fast), the rear wheels get torque transferred to them by the Rear Diff’s DPS (Dual Pump System) via a system of clutches in the rear diff. As the rear wheels with traction start to move the vehicle all four wheels start to turn briefly. Once all four wheels turn briefly the rear wheels loose torque as the DPS’s front and rear pump pressure approach being equal (the front diff and rear diff drive the corresponding pump.). In this event you get a rapid on/off/on…cycling of the torque applied to the rear wheels. Under certain conditions you may remain stuck. I read somewhere that turning the VSA off under those conditions temporarily helps. I’m not sure how. It might be because the VSA applies a braking force to the faster spinning wheels to maintain stability. On ice and snow this might not be desirable at times. The bottom line is that if you have no TPMS sensors you cannot turn the VSA off so that option is not available. I came across nothing that indicates that the vehicle is put into limp home mode at 5 MPH without the sensors or the TPMS working.

It sounds more like a scare tactic. :mad:

Exactly how the VSA, TCS, DPS, Brake Assist and TPMS interface with each other I do not fully understand yet. I will have to reread the FSM to see if I can get to the bottom of this. I think there might be a lot of misunderstanding about all these systems. For certain by me and I would like to get it straight. :confused:

As it pertains to your Accord, if your gut feel is that it is BS, then chances are it is. Once again I refuse to accept that Honda would design anything that impractical. It sounds more like an SM looking for work or trying to meet sales quotas.

I hope I'm not misleading anyone.

-RG

[sleeksilver]

I have been told by a Honda Dealership that on the 2008 Accord, the TPM System is linked to the traction control system. If one installs winter tires and steel rims without TPMs, the only immediate effect will be that the TPM light will come on. However, if in the course of the winter, the automatic traction control system is activated, then the troubles start. I am told that once the traction control is activated, the first thing it looks for after it is called upon is tire pressure. If there are no TPMs, then it sees no tire air pressure and then the vehicle is governed at 5 miles per hour max until the system gets reset...at the dealer. The guy telling me this actually did it with a straight face and seemed to be in earnest, ut it certainly sounds like a crock to me. Has anyone heard of this out there? I always change over my own winter tires, and I truly object to being forced to go back to the dealer every spring and fall to change them just because they need to reset, re-program...the TPM system. The cost is one thing, the extreme inconvenience is another. For someone who monitors tire pressure quite regularly, this is really an imposition.

Would really appreciate input if anyone knows about this.

If the TPMS detects a pressure that is too low it will not allow you to disable VSA. If you do need to disable the VSA you can simply pull the fuse in an emergency situation but I would not recommend driving without VSA as it is an incredibly important safety feature.

Whoever told you that the vehicle would be governed to 5mph is an idiot, and has no idea of what they are talking about. You can blame the government mandated TPMS system on people who do NOT check their tire pressure and end up causing an accident due to that fact, and not being able to control their vehicle (something that VSA helps with).

[chevyguy61]

Radar 24 and Silverstreek,
Thanks very much for taking the time to research and respond to my question on TPMS. With a new car, and warranty concerns, it is probably
best to acquiesce to this TPMS thing. If the absence of the TPM's in the wheels will interfere with the function of the VSA system, or the TCS, then
it is probably wise to install them on the snow tire rims. Also thanks for answering an Accord question on the CR-V forum:D

I learned a lot about VSA and TCS in the process which is much appreciated.

Best Regards

[Black Pearl]

I ran steelies without sensors last winter on my CR-V, not Accord. No problems what so ever except as someone noted above, the light stays on and you can not turn off the VSA. I have read that if you get stuck, the VSA can work against you by braking spinning wheels and limiting the throttle. I had no problems but we didn't have much snow last year.

If you get extra wheels with sensors, then the TPMS sensor must be re-identified in the system everytime you change the wheels. I have read here that dealers charge about $45. I have also seen claims that Costco and some tire shops do it free if you buy the tires from them.

I don't want bothered with getting stupid system re-identified, free or not. So to me, it is not worth fooling with.

A couple of notes. This is not the first time I seen this 5 MPH thing with no sensors. It was brought up in the fall of 2007. I know nothing about Accords, all I can tell you is it is not true on the CR-V. Does the Accord use a sensor in the spare? If not then you would be forced to drive around 5 mph when you used the spare. I think this 5 MPH story may be an urban legend.

When the TPMS light goes on, it doesn't actually activate the VSA, the car drives drives normally. The only problem is that you can't turn the VSA off, if you get stuck, or you like to do donuts in a parking lot (not much of an issue for me).

[sleeksilver]

I have read that if you get stuck, the VSA can work against you by braking spinning wheels and limiting the throttle. I had no problems but we didn't have much snow last year.


You are correct in that the VSA can work against you when you are stuck. Sometimes wheel spin is necessary, especially when you want to do donuts in a snowy field or parking lot! :p

[1sttimer]

Black Pearl, just a quick question - when you put your OE rims and tires back on in the spring, did the TPMS re-recognize the original sensors and the TPMS light shut off?

After some deliberation, I've decided to forgo TPMS sensors on the winter tires I'm getting installed tonight. I figure, if the TPMS light drives me nuts to an unacceptable point, I will get the sensors and pay to have them installed and programmed by Honda. I have a feeling my "thriftiness" will outweigh my sanity though...:o

[Black Pearl]

Yes, the light went out but not immediately. I can't remember for sure but I think it took about 50 to 100 miles before the light went out. It was actually a couple of day of driving for me. If I remember correctly it took about 10 miles for the light to come on last fall after I put the sensorless steelies on.

Regarding the tape method for blocking the light, I didn't want to get tape boogers on the instrument panel. We had a post in the summer of 07 that someone cleaned their instrument panel and the plastic fogged. I had toyed with using piece of stiff cardboard and double taping it to the bottom of the instrument panel. But I just let the light go, and in couple of days it didn't bother me any more.

[Radar24]

quote=Black Pearl;29887]I ran steelies without sensors last winter …

TPMS sensor must be re-identified in the system every time you change the wheels. I have read here that dealers charge about $45. I have also seen claims that Costco and some tire shops do it free if you buy the tires from them.

....

When the TPMS light goes on, it doesn't actually activate the VSA, the car drives normally. The only problem is that you can't turn the VSA off, if you get stuck, or you like to do donuts in a parking lot (not much of an issue for me).[/quote]

BP,
To eliminate another possible Urban Legend, I just talked to Costco. The guy sounded very knowledgeable. The re-identifying of the TPMS sensors is free as part of the package included in the price of their tires. Initial mounting, lifetime balancing & rotation, puncture repairs (interior vulcanized patches per tire manufacturers’ requirements on radials – not just plugs), tread and sidewall road hazard warranty plus courteous, timely and trained techs is what you get for the $9 or $10 package. They recently changed prices on tires not theirs.

Now for better customer relations they have added TPMS sensor resetting “on most cars”. He was fairly sure about CR-Vs, but did not want to make any promises without seeing the car. If a lengthy procedure is called for such as driving the car for so many miles then…blah blah Or basically on anything that cannot do within reason in their bays, you are SOL. Otherwise if their equipment will interface and do the job then it is included with the purchase of their tires.

Can’t beat that! I did not ask but if a sensor stops working they will probably try to get it working again. My dealer gets $107 when I asked for re-identifying 4 wheels. Since labor rates vary other Honda dealer’s charge might differ.

BTW Costco is very good about tire warranty issues - even cuts on the sidewall. I stopped buying from BJ’s as they do not prorate sidewall damage. I once had a sidewall cut and BJ’s would not honor it. So a fairly new Michelin was trash. Nor do the techs seem as skilled or knowledgeable. I do not like Sam’s Club either for similar reasons.

Costco techs have to go to School before they can work on cars a tech told me once. A young guy, he had just started working a few days earlier and other than being slow he was relatively skilled and monitored by one that was. There is even Michelin training some techs go to as Costco sell a LOT of them. I generally chat with techs as they work on my vehicles. Being very fussy about who does work (usually no one) while I try to keep an eye on what is going on anyhow to make sure a repeat of my experience at Sam’s with balance (tire quality) does not occur, I feel relatively at ease when Costco does. There are only a couple of other repair shops in NH I can say the same about. Costco rejects tires requiring more than 3 oz to balance I was told once.

I suppose some might think it is a Ford versus Chevy preference. Not really, I do not care for either! Although a free HHR, Corvette or Mustang would be nice. :D No ice needed to do donuts! :)

-RG

[sleeksilver]

Although a free HHR, Corvette or Mustang would be nice. :D No ice needed to do donuts! :)[/FONT][/COLOR]


Donuts in a FWD (HHR) vehicle are rather difficult! ;)

[Radar24]

Donuts in a FWD (HHR) vehicle are rather difficult!


OOPs, I meant SSR. I’m a touch dyslexic. In ’03 the SSR was brand new and different than anything else out there. Based on the Trailblazer EXT chassis which is the next generation of my 2 S-10s but with some Corvette components. Well maybe in the conceptual stage anyway it had tons of HP and torque. Great donut maker.

I just know the SSR had potential for wheelchair storage in the back with a hoist. Only one problem beside the low $40s k price, It was another GM product! So I never looked into any further.

Thanks for keeping me honest.

-RG