Doesn't Start When Engine is Hot - Page 2
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Thread: Doesn't Start When Engine is Hot

  1. #11
    crv|oc Rank: Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Roscommon View Post
    I replyed to you and forgot to quote (if that helps) message above this......
    A low voltage battery shouldn't damage anything. I assume your replacement glow plug control relay was second hand? It could be that the replacement you got is faulty. I've been trying to find a schematic for it if only to be able to probe some connections but no luck so far.

    My wife also supports the theory that this engine ALWAYS needs the glowplugs on for a bit before it will start, no matter how warm the engine. The controller is quite a complex beast and amongst other things, has two stage heating for the glowplugs. Initially it is very high current (I think this is when the dash lamp is on) then provides a lower current for 3 mins or so. I think I remember reading this.

    The bad news is I found a report on a forum of someone pretty competent at DIY car issues who had the same problem with an Accord of the same vintage. After tracking through various relays they eventually said that they were told by a Honda garage that it may have a bad ECU, replaced the ECU with a second hand reprogrammed one and that fixed the problem. Whatever it is, it is clearly temperature related.

    Does your immobiliser dash indicator (green key outline) flash when fault occurs, (with key in 2nd position and glowplug dash lamp not lit)?

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  3. #12
    crv|oc Rank: Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by sydb View Post
    A low voltage battery shouldn't damage anything. I assume your replacement glow plug control relay was second hand? It could be that the replacement you got is faulty. I've been trying to find a schematic for it if only to be able to probe some connections but no luck so far.

    My wife also supports the theory that this engine ALWAYS needs the glowplugs on for a bit before it will start, no matter how warm the engine. The controller is quite a complex beast and amongst other things, has two stage heating for the glowplugs. Initially it is very high current (I think this is when the dash lamp is on) then provides a lower current for 3 mins or so. I think I remember reading this.

    The bad news is I found a report on a forum of someone pretty competent at DIY car issues who had the same problem with an Accord of the same vintage. After tracking through various relays they eventually said that they were told by a Honda garage that it may have a bad ECU, replaced the ECU with a second hand reprogrammed one and that fixed the problem. Whatever it is, it is clearly temperature related.

    Does your immobiliser dash indicator (green key outline) flash when fault occurs, (with key in 2nd position and glowplug dash lamp not lit)?
    After £300 and 2 worthless mechanics later, yes the problem is with the ECU. Unfortunately Honda doesn't do that service anymore so you gambling on the fact you must buy a second hand ECU (most likely with same problem). It has been over 4 weeks now and I can't find 1 mechanic that actually does this type of work - oil change and fuse replacement monkeys. Yes the green flashing key thing comes up, the car starts cold but can't start it for hours after operation and has got worse.

    I might run the car for 20 mins, turn off engine and position a frozen bag of peas next to ecu to see if that helps.. lol

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  5. #13
    crv|oc Rank: Member
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    Thanks very much for your update. Either the ECU is not communicating with the immobiliser hardware properly or the ECU key/immobilise check is failing internally. The fault is intermittent with likelihood increased with increased temperature or, feasibly, it is not temperature; it may be part of a circuit that is failing to fall/discharge to a reset state after the engine is turned off (or similar) due to a component failure. It could be something as simple as a dry solder joint (though this does not mean it is simple finding it) or something far more complex. There is a company in the UK that will 'rebuild' an ECU but no idea if they would be able to help as I have no experience of them:

    www.ecutesting.com

    They don't look like rip off merchants. They have a few youtube videos. I don't know my exact ECU model number but I can guess and it is not listed on their products page though 4 other apparently CRV models are. If it's a common fault then it might be worth their while establishing a fix. One tip I have read if you are doing this, disconnect the car battery and wait a minute before disconnecting the ECU (it's possible to cause more damage if power is applied to the ECU when disconnecting/reconnecting).

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  7. #14
    crv|oc Rank: Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Roscommon View Post
    After £300 and 2 worthless mechanics later, yes the problem is with the ECU.
    After disconnecting battery, there are two slide out catches on the ECU connector; one either side. Apparently there is one bolt securing the ECU bracket to the bulkhead and two nuts.

  8. #15
    crv|oc Rank: Member
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    By the way, our problem is getting more frequent, too. Maybe it is temperature and the fact that ambient is warming up, or maybe the failing component is getting worse. Difficult to know.

    Also, not sure if you are aware, but it is not just a simple job of swapping ECUs. The new ECU won't know the RFID codes in your key(s) so it will have to be programmed with them - or you need the keys that match the 'new' ECU. Of course, the alarm and locking system may also have their own receivers from the keys, though that is a different coding mechanism. There may be other parts of the car that are coded, too, I don't know. The immobiliser RFID tag and alarm/lock parts inside the key are two physically different things so you can swap one bit with another key if that helps. Of course, Honda will have all this technical know how but getting it will be difficult, especially as all this is part of the anti-theft system.

  9. #16
    crv|oc Rank: Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by sydb View Post
    By the way, our problem is getting more frequent, too. Maybe it is temperature and the fact that ambient is warming up, or maybe the failing component is getting worse. Difficult to know.

    Also, not sure if you are aware, but it is not just a simple job of swapping ECUs. The new ECU won't know the RFID codes in your key(s) so it will have to be programmed with them - or you need the keys that match the 'new' ECU. Of course, the alarm and locking system may also have their own receivers from the keys, though that is a different coding mechanism. There may be other parts of the car that are coded, too, I don't know. The immobiliser RFID tag and alarm/lock parts inside the key are two physically different things so you can swap one bit with another key if that helps. Of course, Honda will have all this technical know how but getting it will be difficult, especially as all this is part of the anti-theft system.
    Never again Honda - switching to Toyota. Thank You for info, I am going to scrap the car because they impossible to fix unless you know the right people or willing to gamble £100,000 + to get it fixed.

  10. #17
    Super Moderator rocky's Avatar
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    Such is the future for all cars with multiple electronic systems.
    It's the misbehaving electronics that will push so many cars to be scrapped before mechanically they need to go.

  11. #18
    crv|oc Rank: Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Roscommon View Post
    Never again Honda - switching to Toyota. Thank You for info, I am going to scrap the car because they impossible to fix unless you know the right people or willing to gamble £100,000 + to get it fixed.
    I sympathise. Can I ask, how did you/Honda establish that the ECM/ECU was at fault or was this just a guess?

    I am waiting for our car to get really bad before I start messing around with things that could render it inoperable. Current value is about £2k. We have spent £200 so far on two garages (one local, one Honda) failing completely to identify the problem. The Honda centre recommended we buy a new immobiliser ring (£300) but failed to diagnose that anything was wrong despite the fault occurring for the guy on the shop floor who we left it with, while we were there. We had been on a journey for 30mins or so, parked it at the Honda place, it didn't start for him but then it was let sit for hours until the mechanics got around to looking at it. They probably had it running with bonnet open and doors open, ticking over for 10mins, therefore exposing maximum coolness, and the fault did not re-occur, which it would not do if temperature related. I find it disgusting that they would then recommend we pay for a new immobiliser ring with absolutely no justification when that is only one element of a system including the ECM, immobiliser receiver unit, immobiliser ring (possibly contains receiver, not sure how 'ring' part is defined), multiplexer module, parking brake switch, fluid level switch, inertia/(+tilt?) switch, probably more, and all the wiring and connectors that go between.

    If it is the ECM then this is made by Bosch whose ECMs are also sometimes used in Toyota. As Rocky says, I think peak value from the car industry for the consumer has now passed. Like many manufacturers of electronic goods, it is now all about making money in the short term. Models are changed so frequently that reliability cannot be assessed before a new model is produced. All consumer car manufacturers (same for most consumer electronics) now produce cars that, on average, will now have a practical operational life shorter than the previous model due to the nature of design of the electronic systems, the lack of adequately trained staff in service centres (mechanics rather than electronics technicians), the designed-in desire for the user not to do DIY, an inadequacy of self diagnostic systems and the inevitable proliferation of intermittent faults such as the one we are seeing here. The manufacturer wants to keep the product you paid for under their control, as well as wanting to know how you use it, and dictate to you how you should - we are effectively leasing more and more of our bought goods now without realising it. And, generally, people are so unwise that they think that having more 'features' is always a good thing.

    The late great Douglas Adams identified the problem through his brilliantly comedic skill with the example of shoe shops on a planet where civilisation had died out because the economy had collapsed because everyone kept on having to buy more and more shoes because they were intentionally getting made worse and worse to make more money for the shoe manufacturing cartel. Later, archeologists examining the strata record found a thin layer consisting of compressed shoes. Anybody that survived evolved into birds and vowed never to set foot on the planet surface again.

  12. #19
    crv|oc Rank: Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Such is the future for all cars with multiple electronic systems.
    It's the misbehaving electronics that will push so many cars to be scrapped before mechanically they need to go.
    Absolutely right but if the electronic systems were designed as discrete modules accessible to adequately trained staff and diagnostics then it wouldn't be so bad. The problem is when so many sensors and transducers are channeled through one computer without adequate self diagnostics having been designed in, or the user not being allowed access to the diagnostic software. The greater the complexity and more features through one computer, the more unreliable the whole system will become. Intermittent faults will always be the main killer and, although, some historic recording of faults is built in, it is not adequate enough.

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