[GsCRV]

Hello,

I'm sure some of you have been following my thread in the "dear honda" section of the board about the VCT rattle my 2014 V has had since the 200 mile mark.

Well, after a recent oil change (at my request) at 2700 miles, the problem has gotten worse. I know there is some disagreement about leaving the original honda oil in until the MM reads 15%. I don't agree with that and I'll just leave it at that.

The dealer installed an "A02" filter (fram junk) and 0-20 oil. Before I would only get the rattle with temps under 40, now it's doing it in the mid-50's. The original oil did seem thicker to me because it took a very long time for it to all drain (it never slowed to a drip after 15 minutes!)

At any rate, one poster in my thread said he installed Pennsoil "dino" oil 5-30 and a mobil 1 filter and that has stopped all the grinding.

I would like to try 5-30W Motorcraft synthetic blend and a purolator Pure 1 filter, but I want to be sure I won't be causing any internal engine damage by doing so since it's still under warranty.

Does anyone know if there will be an issue if I try running the 5-30? I'd prefer not to have then engine in my brand-new honda opened up right away if running a thicker oil will address the issue.

In 2003 when honda released the K24 engine a 5-20 oil was spec'd. 0-20 in my opinion is too thin.

Thanks.

 

[Buffalo4]

It's still under warranty, being a 2014, so using an oil wt and quality other than what is recommended will probably negate your warranty.
Even though many don't like Fram (esp the lower quality ones) oil filters, I really don't believe it is or will be a problem for you.
In fact, the new Fram Ultra is one of the highest rated oil filters. Do some research, if you want (even on bobistheoilguy.com).
Hopefully Honda will get that VCT problem straightened out, since it seems to be becoming a more common problem.
Buffalo4

 

[GsCRV]

Ok, thanks. I was trying to see if Honda would give me their blessing to run the 5-30W, but I've not heard from the Honda dealer yet.

 

[wolf29]

Although I can't see a problem with running that weight, the way I look at it is I don't want to give Honda any kind of out in terms of doing any warranty work when and if the time comes. I can see them saying, well you didn't use spec oil so you ruined such and such a part.

Just a thought...

 

[Ratchet]

Gs, I'm sure you are going to get a LOT of responses to the suggestion that you're considering running a 5W-30 weight oil in your 2014 CR-V instead of the recommended weight, 0W-20.

Let me say initially that Buffalo4 is correct: If you use an oil weight other than that recommended by Honda and you experience an oil-related engine failure --and your VTC actuator certainly falls within that category -- there is a distinct likelihood that Honda will deny warranty coverage for the repair.

Now, having said that, let's walk through this. First, there is no mechanical or tribological reason that you cannot run 5W-30 weight oil in your CR-V. I've done it for years in k-series engines in CR-Vs, Accords and Civics, as have many other Honda owners. I simply continued using Mobil 1 5W-30 weight oil in an '02 Civic Si when issues of premature camshaft wear began to surface on the web years ago. The Civic thrived on it. These days, I blend 0W-20 weight with 5W-30 during the coldest months of the year, but otherwise I use what Honda has recommended in Britain, Germany, Australia, Mexico and South America (you get the idea) for years: 5W-30. It's viscosity is roughly 20% greater at 100-degrees Celcius, and I regard that as a plus.

But let's assume the worst: Your VTC problem gets worse, and you seek to have your VTC actuator replaced under your warranty. Do you really think Honda is going to test your motor oil to determine its viscosity? I don't. And even if they did, your problem has existed since you bought the car. At that time and now it was filled with 0W-20 weight oil. So clearly the weight of the oil in the engine cannot be the proximate cause of your VTC problem. Result: You win in arbitration, if it ever came to that.

Let's turn to your problem for a moment. Will 5W-30 weight oil mitigate your VTC problem? IMHO, it won't for two reasons. First, I think the VTC actuator problem is related to oil pressure, specifically oil viscosity at low ambient temperatures. I've written about this before and linked a video regarding this issue. The grinding you hear is the sound of VTC actuator trying to reposition itself while the engine is starting. That's the source of the problem. When you first turn the key to "On" but before you start your CR-V engine, an electrical signal is sent to the VTC actuator. If you give the VTC actuator a moment to, well, activate, and then turn the key to start the engine, that momentary pause greatly reduces the likelihood that the camshaft will (in effect) be out-of-position when the engine starts. (That's why "bumping" the engine does the same thing, as other have described.) This, however, is the one moment when 0W-20 weight oil could be of benefit. (I say "could be" because, unfortunately, the oil chosen by Honda [ConocoPhillips] 0W-20 weight isn't especially viscous at low temperature.) And, ironically, Mobil 1, even 5W-30, is. But, in any case, oil weight alone is not the potential solution to your problem.

There's another aspect to your VTC problem now. If you had only experienced this once or twice, it might not have permanently compromised your VTC actuator. However, based on what you've described elsewhere, I think your VTC actuator needs replacement. Why your Honda dealer is resisting this is beyond me.

So, to come full circle, there is no mechanical reason why you cannot use 5W-30 weight oil in your CR-V, but I don't think it will solve your problem. It could also compromise your warranty coverage, and you need that coverage to resolve your VTC actuator problem without potential personal expense.

 

[Buffalo4]

That wt oil is probably recommended in Europe and would likely be just fine in your CRV.
Since you have the warranty and want to maintain it, you must abide by their rules, whatever they turn out to be.
If that did fix the problem, it would most likely be a temp fix and the problem would probably return the day after the warranty runs out.
Buffalo4
PS: Excellent post Rachet, I guess it must have posted while I was typing.

 

[13CRVEXLKC]

Let's turn to your problem for a moment. Will 5W-30 weight oil mitigate your VTC problem? IMHO, it won't for two reasons. First, I think the VTC actuator problem is related to oil pressure, specifically oil viscosity at low ambient temperatures. I've written about this before and linked a video regarding this issue. The grinding you hear is the sound of VTC actuator trying to reposition itself while the engine is starting. That's the source of the problem. When you first turn the key to "On" but before you start your CR-V engine, an electrical signal is sent to the VTC actuator. If you give the VTC actuator a moment to, well, activate, and then turn the key to start the engine, that momentary pause greatly reduces the likelihood that the camshaft will (in effect) be out-of-position when the engine starts. (That's why "bumping" the engine does the same thing, as other have described.) This, however, is the one moment when 0W-20 weight oil could be of benefit. (I say "could be" because, unfortunately, the oil chosen by Honda [ConocoPhillips] 0W-20 weight isn't especially viscous at low temperature.) And, ironically, Mobil 1, even 5W-30, is. But, in any case, oil weight alone is not the potential solution to your problem.

To some extent I disagree with the description of the operation of the VTC Actuator or maybe it is what is referred to as the VTC actuator.

The VTC Actuator itself, is mechanical/hydraulic operation only, advance/ retard mechanism attached to the end of the intake cam. The position of it, either in the advanced or retarded mode is controlled by the electrically operated VTC oil control valve. In one position the actuator in the oil control valve allows oil to flow in one direction through oil passages in the block and one of the camshaft bearings to the VTC Actuator, either advancing the cam or retarding it. When the oil control valve is in the opposite position the oil flow through the block and VTC Actuator is in the opposite direction.

If the lock pin in the VTC Actuator is not seated, turning the key to ON will not do anything for the lock pin, the lock pin is not electrically controlled, it's movement is by oil pressure and a return spring. By turning the key ON, the oil control valve could move if it happens to be out of place in relation to where it should be at cold start.
Bumping the starter is likely resetting the lock pin before actually starting the engine.

Not that it makes much difference, I don't believe the sound is of a grinding nature, to me it is hammering, two or more parts banging against each other. I have come across a couple of people on forums, who have Accords with this same issue who have had the heads of intake valves broken off, their entire engine was replaced by Honda. Maybe it is the intake valves and pistons banging, maybe it is the internals of the VTC Actuator banging against it's self until the lock pin reseats if that is the problem.

I have not yet been able to find a through start to finish, who, what, where, why, and when explanation of the VTC and VTEC operations including the parameters that the computer operates within. Honda propriety info?

 

[04 Black CrV]

I know in our 04 we had the VTC replaced and still run a 5w20. The noise will still occur on some cold mornings. Not every morning though. It really is hard to pin down. This past winter when it was -30 wind chill, no noise. I have heard it though when it was just above zero. Not really sure what is the cause and how to prevent it but if you guys can find out I would appreciate it. We have not heard it in our '13 but it stays in the garage. It may be a faulty engineering design and there is no fix.

 

[13CRVEXLKC]

I know in our 04 we had the VTC replaced and still run a 5w20. The noise will still occur on some cold mornings. Not every morning though. It really is hard to pin down. This past winter when it was -30 wind chill, no noise. I have heard it though when it was just above zero. Not really sure what is the cause and how to prevent it but if you guys can find out I would appreciate it. We have not heard it in our '13 but it stays in the garage. It may be a faulty engineering design and there is no fix.

I had not heard of the issue going back as far as your 04, probably from the beginning of the current variation of the K24. The issue is at least 10 years old now and no definitive fix from Honda. That is reassuring.

 

[GsCRV]

Ratchet (and others),

Ratchet, in perticular, thanks for your excellent and very detialed post. I agree with some of what you said and some of what 13CRV mentioned. The VCT actuator on the intake cam, in and of itself is a mechanical item operated by oil pressure, the oil pressure and direction is directly controlled by the VCT actuator solenoid (an electrically operated part). there is a lock pin in the VCT that (in what I believe) is designed to lock both halfs of it together until there is sufficent oil pressure present that it releases and allows free movement of the VCT depending on the demands and load placed on the engine (to advance or retard the timing).

I believe the hammering comes from the failure of the lock pin to seat, due to a defective VCT or imporoper installation of the VCT when the engine is assembled, such that the lock pin is installed in a bind and cannot move freely to move to the "lock" position when the engine is shut down.

I wonder if my VCT oil (actuator) solenoid is "lazy" and not resetting itself like it should be. I agree with the number of times I've had the rattle (yes it's not a grind, it's a rattle, or a hammering, as mentioned this is not pistons hitting valves, but is the actuator halfs internally banging against each other until oil pressure comes up).

I sent an email to the service manager at my local honda dealer asking them point blank if I can run 5-30W oil or will that void my warranty. If can run a 5-30W I'm going to run Motorcraft Synthetic blend 5-30W, just my personal preference, I like the motorcraft oils and have run the 5-20 in my wife's 08 Focus since new and it now has over 116K on it and still runs excellent.

I will let you all know how I make out, but I have decided to have the VCT replaced and be done with it, but I also asked them to ensure the VCT oil control solenoid is working as it should and is not "lazy" as I believe that contributes to the problem.

I have asked my Honda dealer to contact Honda Engineering to see if a revised VCT has been released or not and if so to ensure I get the newest or updated version, as I was told on a prior appointment that when they replace a VCT Honda Engineering request they be sent back to them for analysis, so clearly they are investigating this issue. I certinly hope it's not something that's an inherent design flaw that cannot be solved. I doubt that's the case. I only heard of this issue starting in 2008 and newer Accords. My Mom's 05 CRV was always dead quiet, regardless of temperature from day 1 till she traded it in this past new years eve with 108K on it. Something changed since then. I just wonder if it's got to do with oil weight. I need to check to see what the reccomended weight is for an 08 Accord or when it changed from 5-20 to 0-20. My dealer told me their lead tech has already called Honda Enginering and ordered the most recent (if there is one) release of the VCT.

Another issue, unrelated i've noticed is if I have the front wipers on and shut the car off without turning the wipers off, when i start the car and move it, the rear wiper will wipe 3 times in two cycles, even with the rear wiper switch OFF. That does not seem right to me but it's done that since new. Did honda program it that way or do i have an issue?

Beyond this issue I love my V, for it's size it's very spacious and comfortable. Honda has always been there for me when issues have arisen and taken care of me so while this issue is very upsetting, dissapointing and frustrating to deal with on a brand new car, I'm not throwing in the towel on Honda yet!

Thanks again, I really appreciate all the thoughts and comments. You all are great.

 

[wolf29]

My rear wipers do that too. I think it's programed in so that when you have the front wipers on and you're backing out the car is automatically helping you out by wiping off the back window. How nice of the CR-V

 

[13CRVEXLKC]

If your windshield wipers are on, the rear will wipe when put in reverse.

 

[GsCRV]

Thanks for the quick responses guys, I really appreciate that! That helps put my mind at ease!

I figured it was a design aspect, but I wanted to be sure.

 

[04 Black CrV]

I had not heard of the issue going back as far as your 04, probably from the beginning of the current variation of the K24. The issue is at least 10 years old now and no definitive fix from Honda. That is reassuring.

The thing with our 04 is it never did it until a couple of years ago and it was sporadic. Like once every month or two. I had it replaced because it was leaking oil very badly and I didn't have time to do it myself while I was getting some suspension work done. I thought that would have fixed the issue but it still happens every once in a while. It was replaced in '12 by the dealer. I can't seem to figure out what is causing it. It will happen when it sits overnight but that is about the only constant. Super cold or not so cold, fresh oil or almost time for a change. I can't pinpoint it and it doesn't happen often enough to figure it out.

 

[13CRVEXLKC]

The thing with our 04 is it never did it until a couple of years ago and it was sporadic. Like once every month or two. I had it replaced because it was leaking oil very badly and I didn't have time to do it myself while I was getting some suspension work done. I thought that would have fixed the issue but it still happens every once in a while. It was replaced in '12 by the dealer. I can't seem to figure out what is causing it. It will happen when it sits overnight but that is about the only constant. Super cold or not so cold, fresh oil or almost time for a change. I can't pinpoint it and it doesn't happen often enough to figure it out.

That is interesting, I have read of many who have had theirs replaced by the dealer and the noise remains. I heard ours three times, my wife said it did it a "couple" of other times, I believe it wasn't until after the first oil change but can't be sure, that was at 6k mi. The temps at the time were far below freezing. Our 07 went 85k and never did it that I heard, and the wife never mentioned it.

I am going to wait until next winter and see what happens, if it become a regular occurrence I will take it to the dealer for repair. If it proceeds to do it after that, I will probably buy one that has been modified by a Honda tuner and install myself.

As I mentioned earlier, I would like to find out the operation of the entire system, when it goes through each mode, what position it is supposed to be in when the engine is off, low speed, high speed, etc. I have not been able to put all of the pieces together.

 

[downunder47]

iVTEC solenoid has 3 positions...

The iVTEC oil control solenoid has 3 positions. One for idle and two for timing.

At idle the camshaft is moved longitudinally so a different set of cam lobes operate the intake valves. One is opened fully while the other is opened very much less. This causes a swirling of the intake charge improving combustion such that the mixture can be leaned from the typical 15 to 1 up to 20 to 1 reducing pollution.

And a note about oil, some years ago we had '98 Explorer with 160,000 miles given to us by our daughter. It had been used very little for a few years and had vibration. A Ford dealership replaced one of the engine mounts which did not fix it so they did not charge for it. Then they spent 3 hours with 2 tech's winding up by switching the vibration damper from another vehicle, which also did not fix it. Still no charge.

Then I had them change the oil with whatever they use and, Voilà! Fixed it! Turns out is was Motorcraft 10W30 Semi-Synthetic.

I am convinced Motorcraft oil is as good as it gets. Semi, or full synthetic, both of which are canned by Conoco-Philips.

 

[GsCRV]

Yep I hear you on the motor craft synthetic blend oils. I know what oil opinions are like...(lol)....but I'm very impressed by them that's for sure.

 

[Grumpypants]

That is interesting, I have read of many who have had theirs replaced by the dealer and the noise remains.

I have been following this thread as well as the one on the 9th gen Civic forum and others have said that their understanding is that if the noise comes back it's because of a mistake on the part of the tech who did the work. I don't know why it couldn't be another bad actuator but it would seem the skill of the tech is of particular importance in this case.

Others who know more can correct me if this is off base.



Sent from AutoGuide.com App

 

[GsCRV]

That is my understating as well. RegaRding the skill of the tech doing the work and I've shared all my knowledge with the dealership so they're aware about not using air tools, etc.

Also of bigger importance, I received an e-mail confirmation from the dealer service manager that confirms I can run whatever weight oil I want and it will not void the warranty! The mgr agreed/confirmed my suspicion that the 0-20 is specified to maximize fuel economy..!!

While that may be true I have to question at what expense?? I'm going to 5 30 at next change!

 

[wolf29]

Also of bigger importance, I received an e-mail confirmation from the dealer service manager that confirms I can run whatever weight oil I want and it will not void the warranty!

That's great, but may want to get that in writing... just saying.

Let us know how you make out at next oil change going with a higher weight. I'd like to do that as well but will let you be the guinea pig