[UMRdyldo]

So you make a whole bunch of assumptions to come to your conclusion. Seems smart.

 

[fiatlux]

Agreed... except the 2021 RAV4 Hybrid Prime Plug-in will be WAY more expensive than the 2020 CRV Hybrid.

I'm guessing the RAV4 Prime will be at least US$55,000 out-the-door.

And if there's no tax credit?

My estimated price breakdown:
-- $37k for 2020 RAV4 Hybrid Limited
-- Add $10k for 302hp Prime Plug-in package
-- Add $3k for option packages (Tech, Weather, Protective)
-- Add $2k for typical extras
-- Tax, license, registration, delivery, extended warranty.
-- Maybe ~$3k dealer markup.

That is, initially I bet the RAV4 Prime is offered only on a restricted-availability loaded top-of-the-line Limited model.

And even if it's eventually offered on a base model, I expect the RAV4 Prime will still be $10k-ish more expensive than a comparable CRV Hybrid.

No thanks.

Instead, to replace my current 2011 CRV SE AWD, I'll be looking for a base CRV Hybrid hopefully around $30k.

Nice assumptions...too bad Toyota already said that this will only be available with the SE and XSE trims.

 

[williamsji]

Agreed... except the 2021 RAV4 Hybrid Prime Plug-in will be WAY more expensive than the 2020 CRV Hybrid.

I'm guessing the RAV4 Prime will be at least US$55,000 out-the-door.

And if there's no tax credit?

My estimated price breakdown:
-- $37k for 2020 RAV4 Hybrid Limited
-- Add $10k for 302hp Prime Plug-in package
-- Add $3k for option packages (Tech, Weather, Protective)
-- Add $2k for typical extras
-- Tax, license, registration, delivery, extended warranty.
-- Maybe ~$3k dealer markup.

That is, initially I bet the RAV4 Prime is offered only on a restricted-availability loaded top-of-the-line Limited model.

And even if it's eventually offered on a base model, I expect the RAV4 Prime will still be $10k-ish more expensive than a comparable CRV Hybrid.

No thanks.

Instead, to replace my current 2011 CRV SE AWD, I'll be looking for a base CRV Hybrid hopefully around $30k.

Most of your assumptions are fairly reasonable, though I think your end result number is too high... and they will sell in other trims besides Limited. I'm guessing more in the range of $40K-42K, not $55K.

That said, I do know in California they will be popular with die hard RAV4 fans.. and so they will not be selling any at discount for a good amount of time unless it gets bad reviews like the rollout of the latest gen RAV4-non-hybrid. Same will be true for the gen6 CRV when it comes out the following year.. and if Honda forward marketing plans are any indicator.. the gen6 CRV may very well also offer a plugin version as well as a standard hybrid. Honda specifically states they want to be out of the normal gas engine powertrains by late 2020s... and so far they appear to be moving in that direction on plan.

 

[williamsji]

So you make a whole bunch of assumptions to come to your conclusion. Seems smart.

Thing is... every comment so far ARE assumptions being presented as such.

It's just that personal bias tends to color assumptions (and rejection of assumptions) when facts on a new vehicle are absent.

 

[Retired Boomer]

Most of your assumptions are fairly reasonable, though I think your end result number is too high... and they will sell in other trims besides Limited. I'm guessing more in the range of $40K-42K, not $55K...

I agree, eventually we'll see low-$40K lower-trim RAV4 Prime models.

But still, that's much more expensive than the sub-$30K I expect for a lower-trim 2020 CRV Hybrid.

Anyway, 300hp notwithstanding, for me a plug-in hybrid just isn't worth the added cost & complexity. And down the road, the larger plug-in battery will likely be much more expensive to replace. Not good for a brand that's noted for longevity.

All I know for sure is, my one-owner low-mile 2011 CRV SE AWD is running great. So I'm willing to wait & see.

 

[fiatlux]

I agree, eventually we'll see low-$40K lower-trim RAV4 Prime models.

But still, that's much more expensive than the sub-$30K I expect for a lower-trim 2020 CRV Hybrid.

Anyway, 300hp notwithstanding, for me a plug-in hybrid just isn't worth the added cost & complexity. And down the road, the larger plug-in battery will likely be much more expensive to replace. Not good for a brand that's noted for longevity.

All I know for sure is, my one-owner low-mile 2011 CRV SE AWD is running great. So I'm willing to wait & see.

I played around with the Toyota configurator, and it looks like the Hybrid option is only $425 more than the equivalent AWD version (across all the trims the hybrid is offered). Toyota already mentioned that the plugin will only be available in the SE and XSE trim. The XSE Hybrid is currently $34K. The Prius Prime is an additional $3500 over the regular Prius. Let's say the RAV4 Prime has a $5000 premium over the hybrid. That means the top-trim model would come out to around $39K, and once you factor in the $6K federal tax credit that's down to $33K. The SE is probably a couple thousand cheaper than the XSE, so net price of that trim is probably real close to $30K. Throw in the additional state incentives, and it might even drop below $30K.

 

[Retired Boomer]

I played around with the Toyota configurator, and it looks like the Hybrid option is only $425 more than the equivalent AWD version (across all the trims the hybrid is offered). Toyota already mentioned that the plugin will only be available in the SE and XSE trim. The XSE Hybrid is currently $34K. The Prius Prime is an additional $3500 over the regular Prius. Let's say the RAV4 Prime has a $5000 premium over the hybrid. That means the top-trim model would come out to around $39K, and once you factor in the $6K federal tax credit that's down to $33K. The SE is probably a couple thousand cheaper than the XSE, so net price of that trim is probably real close to $30K. Throw in the additional state incentives, and it might even drop below $30K.

RAV4 Prime is only offered on SE and XSE? I just checked, you're correct.

But don't overlook the cost for the horsepower difference in the RAV4 Prime (302 hp) vs the regular RAV4 Hybrid (219 hp).

For comparison, it's $5100 extra for the V6 Camry (301 hp) over the 4-cyl Camry (203 hp).

Anyway, now that I think about it, I hope you're right about a $30K net price for the RAV4 Prime. It might persuade Honda to offer incentives on the CRV -- especially the non-hybrids.

 

[MASTERNC]

Well, I thought I was going to be putting down money for a 2020 CR-V Hybrid, in all likelihood, until the details of this were announced. Now I might be holding off to see how the RAV4 Prime pans out. Given I plan to move within 5-10 miles of my office next year (currently live 30 miles away), the plug-in would be right within that range. It will come down to compromises and price.

 

[UMRdyldo]

RAV4 Prime is only offered on SE and XSE? I just checked, you're correct.

But don't overlook the cost for the horsepower difference in the RAV4 Prime (302 hp) vs the regular RAV4 Hybrid (219 hp).

For comparison, it's $5100 extra for the V6 Camry (301 hp) over the 4-cyl Camry (203 hp).

Anyway, now that I think about it, I hope you're right about a $30K net price for the RAV4 Prime. It might persuade Honda to offer incentives on the CRV -- especially the non-hybrids.

Yeah most of this is going to come down to price increase vs. federal tax credit.

 

[fiatlux]

Anyway, now that I think about it, I hope you're right about a $30K net price for the RAV4 Prime. It might persuade Honda to offer incentives on the CRV -- especially the non-hybrids.

This is the best way to look at it. I love it when a competitor improves their product, because it means my preferred automaker will either have to up their game, reduce their price to remain competitive, or I have a better alternative (namely the other competitor) to turn to. It's a win-win as a consumer. The only people who lose are fanboys (and maybe current owners if it means their resale value goes down).

 

[williamsji]

Well, I thought I was going to be putting down money for a 2020 CR-V Hybrid, in all likelihood, until the details of this were announced. Now I might be holding off to see how the RAV4 Prime pans out. Given I plan to move within 5-10 miles of my office next year (currently live 30 miles away), the plug-in would be right within that range. It will come down to compromises and price.

If you can hold off until the 2021 RAV4 plugin comes out... maybe wait another year until the gen6 CRV releases... as it may very well also have a plugin version in the line up. Hopefully... when Honda does release a plugin hybrid CRV... they do it world wide.. and not follow how they did the rollout of the gen5 hybrid.... in EU only for the first year or two.

 

[gnosisdog]

Well the recent update of the RAV 4 did not exactly hit it out of the park. Lots of complaints about the handling and rough engine. I'm assuming the Prime will be an improvement, especially with the horsepower bump and 40 mile all electric range. I do far prefer Toyota's Synergy AWD system over the mechanical AWD on the Hybrid CR-V.

 

[MASTERNC]

If you can hold off until the 2021 RAV4 plugin comes out... maybe wait another year until the gen6 CRV releases... as it may very well also have a plugin version in the line up. Hopefully... when Honda does release a plugin hybrid CRV... they do it world wide.. and not follow how they did the rollout of the gen5 hybrid.... in EU only for the first year or two.

not sure how long I want to hold on to my 2015 CR-V past the expiration of the extended warranty (which will probably be middle of next year).

 

[tmc128]

was looking at the crv hybrid but the prime looks superior in all the numbers HP, acceleration, 39 ev range (on a normal workday I won't use any gas). Edmund says the battery should be big enough to qualify for the tax credit.price should be competitive, what am I missing here.I don't consider Honda quality to be a differentiating factor any longer, maybe in the past. downside for both models would be increased complexity of dual systems and first year bugs. not sure how seamless the transition is as well sometimes it can be loud, jarring switch-over to gas.
I find myself moving along this train of thought even further. what about decreasing complexity by a large margin. increasing acceleration. Never having to pull into a gas station. Eliminating the maintenance minder because none is needed, other then tire care and some fluids. What about a Tesla model Y? yes I know the price is low 50s with no tax break instead of low 40s with a break. but is it worthy of some consideration here , what do you think?

 

[Chrisss]

The RAV4 PHEV will not qualify for any federal tax credit if its battery is 4 kw or less and its current hybrid battery packs 1.9 KW for roughly the same mpg gain.

 

[fiatlux]

The RAV4 PHEV will not qualify for any federal tax credit if its battery is 4 kw or less and its current hybrid battery packs 1.9 KW for roughly the same mpg gain.

Considering it gets more range than the Prius Prime, and it's heavier, I'm pretty sure it's battery is going to larger than the 8.8 kWH battery in that car. Frankly that's already a foregone conclusion.

 

[UMRdyldo]

The RAV4 PHEV will not qualify for any federal tax credit if its battery is 4 kw or less and its current hybrid battery packs 1.9 KW for roughly the same mpg gain.

You can pretty much guarantee it will be or this vehicle would not be sold much with the marked up price.

 

[tmc128]

this was from Edmunds but they are guessing
https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/rav4-prime/

2023 Toyota RAV4 Prime Prices, Reviews, and Pictures | Edmunds

Research the 2023 Toyota RAV4 Prime with our expert reviews and ratings. Edmunds also has Toyota RAV4 Prime pricing, MPG, specs, pictures, safety features, consumer reviews and more. Our comprehensive coverage delivers all you need to know to make an informed car buying decision.

www.edmunds.com

Specific details regarding the battery's size and recharge time were not available at press time. But we know it takes a good-size lithium-ion battery pack to enable 39 miles of range in something like a compact all-wheel-drive SUV. Our back-of-envelope estimation suggests that 16 kWh should just about do it, and that just happens to be the minimum size necessary to qualify for the full federal tax credit of $7,500.

 

[williamsji]

was looking at the crv hybrid but the prime looks superior in all the numbers HP, acceleration, 39 ev range (on a normal workday I won't use any gas). Edmund says the battery should be big enough to qualify for the tax credit.price should be competitive, what am I missing here.I don't consider Honda quality to be a differentiating factor any longer, maybe in the past. downside for both models would be increased complexity of dual systems and first year bugs. not sure how seamless the transition is as well sometimes it can be loud, jarring switch-over to gas.
I find myself moving along this train of thought even further. what about decreasing complexity by a large margin. increasing acceleration. Never having to pull into a gas station. Eliminating the maintenance minder because none is needed, other then tire care and some fluids. What about a Tesla model Y? yes I know the price is low 50s with no tax break instead of low 40s with a break. but is it worthy of some consideration here , what do you think?

Read the spec details closer... this is NOT and electric vehicle... it is a plugin hybrid. They are in fact different.

If you think you will never need to stop into a gas station with the 2021 plug-in hybrid.. you are either never going to drive more then 30ish or so miles a day and always plugin overnight .... or you are deluding yourself.

AND... since it still has a gas engine component.. it will still require regular gas engine maintenance. Even if you literally never drive enough distance to fire up the gas engine.. it still needs to have the oil and other fluids changed periodically.

As for Teslas.. if you think they are zero maintenance ... you have been drinking too much Elon Musk flavored coolaid.

 

[mikefocke]

I was born in 1979. In late 1982, my mother got rid of her horrendous 1977 Dodge Dart in favor of a RWD 1983 Corolla. In 1986 my father bought my family's first Camry He drove it off the lot with exactly five miles on the odometer. I was seven years old, sitting in the back seat, but I was leaning forward with my hands and body squeezing between the plush and fuzzy bucket seats.

A year and a half later, my mother traded the Corolla for a 1988 Camry. In 1994, she traded that for a 1995 Camry. In late 1995, I was 16 and I told my father I was commandeering his 1986 Camry with 187K on the clock and he had to buy himself a replacement, so he bought a 1996 Camry that was stolen three months after delivery and stripped so badly it was declared a total loss. Then he bought another 1996 Camry to replace the stolen vehicle.

In 2004, we bought a used 1985 Camry. To say we were a bit obsessed is an understatement. The 1986 and 1996 vehicles both clocked over 300K original miles with us. I sold the 1996 after my father died in 2012 with 308K on the clock and I just recently got a Carfax update indicating its subsequent owner(s) have now driven it to a total of 392K and counting. I got careless and crashed the 1986 car with 332K in 2007 and I got rear-ended in the 1985 Camry in 2014. I hit the car in front of me, so I became the middle part of a three-car sandwich and the damage to the front and rear of the '85 car was too severe to save it.

In late 1995, after I hijacked possession of the 1986 Camry, we looked at the new Accord, Civic, Corolla, and Camry. On the Honda side, we loved the Civic, but hated that generation Accord. On the Toyota side, we liked both a lot, but the Camry was clearly a superior choice for its extra size and power over the Corolla. So it became a bit of an unfair fight between the '96 Civic and Camry. The Honda dealer called to follow up after our Civic test drive, and I told him we were simply more comfortable with Toyota. He said he has known lots of people on both sides of that coin, and they rarely ever switch over to the other team.

24 years later, sitting in a 2019 Honda feels similar to me to sitting in a 1996 Honda. Sitting in a 2019 Toyota feels like sitting in a spaceship. Toyota has betrayed me and in my opinion, betrayed itself, its roots, and its entire company history. After a brief (at least it's brief for me when it comes to cars and their longevity) digression to Nissan for the past six years, I'm scheduled to pick up my first Honda in exactly 24 hours. Wish me luck.

The 2019 Rav4 has a traditional oil filter, not like the Tacoma featured in the below video, but the Rav4 calls for 0W-16 full synthetic. Good luck getting that oil at Walmart or anywhere other than a Toyota dealer. It's an undeniably shameless cash grab. Makes me think whoever is running Toyota Motor Corporation has a lot of experience in taxation and government-sanctioned racketeering.

The 2021 Rogue looks more intimidating than the 2021 Rav4, regardless of combined horsepower. I wouldn't touch a Toyota with a 10 foot pole at this point. They have simply disappointed me too much and strayed too far from what made them great.

My Walmart has the 0w16 oil. So do many auto parts stores.

The '19 Rav4h suffers from a fuel filling issue on some cars at some stations at some fill rates. That is the only often reported problem I see on the forums for the first year of this design. I'm averaging slightly over 40 MPG but that was summer driving.

I liked the current CRV when I drove it but 2 of my last 3 Honda products were disasters in terms of reliability and corporate support over the first 75k miles I owned them. The OD issue made the decision easier.