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Discussion Starter #1
gask.jpg

Had a blowout between 1&2... Any recommendations for a good brand of gasket? I also figured I'd change the bolts. Maybe studs? I also had a couple of the small bolts that retain the cam caps break off while loosening :p

Any advise would be most welcome! I'm a pretty experienced mechanic but new to Honda :)

It's a 2000 2L auto with AWD 175,000 miles

Thanks in advance!
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Pretty dead here...

I figured I'd just get a reman head instead of fooling with the old one. Especially since it has some bolts broken off. I also noticed that one of the cam sprockets has a chip out of it near the keyway location so I guess I'll change it as well.

So far I have a head on the way as well as a new timing belt, water pump and idler plus a new cam sprocket. Figured I'd change them while I'm in there. Love the little car so I figure it's worth putting the time and $$ into.

I haven't picked up a gasket yet but read that the OEM's from Honda are the best so I'm gonna go that route. I'm also gonna order some new head bolts and pick up an OEM t'stat from the dealer. Friggin' OEM gasket is about $100 but I don't want to have to go in there again... Probably sling some new seals on the injectors too.

While troubleshooting the misfire I cleaned the IACV and screwed the deal in the fast idle valve back down as well as ordering a new front pipe, catalytic converter and o2 sensors because the exhaust was all hacked up.
 

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Fel-Pro makes good gasket. If you are going aftermarket go for Fel-pro. I would suggest to also replace the valve seals with Fel-pro or OEM. Have you tried to use OEM suppliers they are lower priced than that of the walk in dealership parts department. hondapartsnow.com
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Any obvious reason that the head gasket blew?
Hard to say. I traded a truck for it and it had the stalling at idle problems which was pretty intermittent. It also had a pipe hacked in place of the catalytic converter and no O2 sensors. No overheating or anything but it has a new radiator which could mean it was overheated. I drove it about 70 miles visiting some friends and about halfway there it began pinging pretty bad at part throttle :mad: I nursed it there and home but the pinging was pretty bad. About halfway home I noticed white smoke at a stop light...

I had the O2 sensors, cat and exhaust parts on order at that time so maybe I shouldn't have driven it at all :p I wasn't even sure if I was hearing pre-ignition or some leaking/rattling in the bootleg exhaust but I'm betting that it was pinging. I'm wondering if it started when the gasket blew out or if it caused the failure? No signs of pre-ignition on the pistons or head though...

It's an awesome little truck and I'm absolutely in love with it :eek::cool:

I have some new head bolts on order and an OEM Honda headgasket.

It has some signs that may indicate that someone has had the head off before so maybe it was improperly installed?

IMG_1671.jpg

The deck looks a little scuffed up like someone fought with the head while installing it.

IMG_1670.jpg

This is one of the cam cap bolts that broke. It just "popped" while I was loosening it :mad:

Just wanted to add that I'm a pretty experienced backyard mechanic and this thing is really nice to work on! I went to the trouble of taking the exhaust manifold off which should make it easier to place the head back on without wrestling with too much stuff. I removed the intake bolts with a crow-foot but NO WAY those things are going back on like that. I finally figured out the two bolts that hold the intake to the bracket at the back of the engine :rolleyes: I reckon I'll put the intake onto the head and install it as an assembly.

Pretty straight forward job so far if you don't count all the cooling lines and electrical connectors which will have to be hooked up properly...
 

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Sounds like a great project and worthwhile to get her back in shape.

I think head gasket installation really benefits from super cleanliness of all the surfaces.

Haven't met an engine yet that didn't need a head bolt re-torques after some initial mileage. Which seems a chore on this engine if you've got to remove the cams to do it.
 

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Honda head bolt procedure...

It does appear the head was installed without a torque wrench! The bolt that came apart when being loosened was likely torqued beyond it's elastic limit so it pulled apart instead of being turned.

Definitely get another head, OEM gasket, and new bolts/studs.

Checked the Service Manual for a '10 and found the head bolt installation is a VERY BIG deal! First, new OEM gasket and bolts/studs is highly recommended. Step one is to measure the diameter at 45mm and 50mm from the end opposite the bolt head. If it is less than 10.6mm (0.42 in.) do not use it! Hmmm. Why would it be reduced in diameter? Because it was torqued beyond it's elastic limit.

Head technology is a very hairy subject. They have to apply constant pressure to prevent leaks even while being heated and cooled through extreme temperatures. Proper torquing is critical.

Step 2 is to apply engine oil to the bolts/studs and head surface where the bolt head contacts. A warming is that if a bolt/stud makes a noise while torquing, remove it, measure it again, re-lube it and start over. Torquing is broken into two distinct actions, 1, initial torquing with torque wrench, and 2, final torquing by turning a fixed number of degrees, two or three times. The initial torque is 29 lbf.ft. It says "Use a beam-style torque wrench." Then it says "When using a preset click-style torque wrench, be sure to tighten slowly and do not over tighten."

Keep in mind a click-style torque wrench can be dangerous in that if it clicks while the bolt is not moving it can be at any torque above it's setting! This is such a critical point in the procedure, I would not risk a click-style wrench for this step. Sears still has Beam-style wrenches - the 3/8 has a range up to 75 lbf.ft. for about $18.

Action 2 is to turn each bolt 90 degrees in turn, in the proper tightening sequence, two times, and a third for new bolts. This suggests that the bolts are tightened very slightly beyond their elastic limit making the procedure all the more critical.

There is no mention of re-torquing. It seems contraindicated since there is no specification of the final torque.

All this is for an '07 through '11. Yours is very likely to vary from this.

It appears that Honda head bolt torque sequences vary a LOT from engine to engine.

My suggestion is to either buy a Service Manual for your vehicle, or borrow one from a Honda dealer and find the procedure for your specific vehicle.

Good luck,

47
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
How much $ do you figure to have into the project?
With new cat, front pipe, o2 sensors, reman head, timing belt, water pump, gaskets, head bolts, plugs etc. Probably about $700. I'm waiting on parts to arrive now.

I picked up a tool for loosening the balancer bolt so I'm about to tear that part down now. Hopefully I can have everything ready to go back together when all the parts arrive!

@ WDHewson: I agree. Man it's gonna be a PITA to re torque it but I may go ahead and do it. I may also throw some copper coat on the gasket. I've always had good luck with it in the past with iron engines.

@ downunder47: Sounds like good advise! I have a service manual and I've always been pretty meticulous about following head bolt procedures. Interesting point about click wrenches. I may pick up an old school beam. My clicker has never been checked for accuracy so there's that too... Back in the day I used to clean out head bolt holes with an old bolt that had a slot cut down one side sort of like a tap. Pretty good for getting gunk out of the threads.
 

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Thanks...

@ downunder47: Sounds like good advise! I have a service manual and I've always been pretty meticulous about following head bolt procedures. Interesting point about click wrenches. I may pick up an old school beam. My clicker has never been checked for accuracy so there's that too... Back in the day I used to clean out head bolt holes with an old bolt that had a slot cut down one side sort of like a tap. Pretty good for getting gunk out of the threads.
Is the procedure in your manual similar?

Your thread cleaning method is brilliant!

I used a tap until I realized I was damaging the hole.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Is the procedure in your manual similar?

Your thread cleaning method is brilliant!

I used a tap until I realized I was damaging the hole.
I was visiting my mother and left the manual there although I did look over the procedure. I think it said to torque in 2 steps as well as lube the threads etc. I'll have it handy and open to the torque sequence when I replace the head though! I was mainly looking at the timing belt replacement as well as setting the ignition timing. Seems there is some jumper wire business involved there.

It's a shame that I was only able to drive it for about a week before I had to shut it down :( I'm VERY excited about getting it on the road again. At least I'll have some piece of mind knowing that the normal stuff that screws up will be straightened out!

The day I got the car I ordered a trailer hitch and an MP3 adapter deal. I guess I'll go ahead and deal with those things while I'm waiting on engine parts :)

Yea, chasing threads with a tap always creeped me out! Sometimes they'd come out with a few metal chips on them and make me go hmmmm :confused:

Thanks for all the input folks!
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Figured I'd update this as I go. I always enjoy looking at threads concerning troubles I'm having so maybe this'll help/inspire someone else.

I got the balancer off:

IMG_1675.jpg

I've pictured 2 tools that were pretty handy getting this thing off. I have a Cheap-O Harbour Freight 3/4" drive socket set that goes from 19mm to 50mm. I got it several years ago for less than $100US and it's paid for itself many times over! I'm sure it wouldn't hold up to the everyday use of a pro mechanic but for occasional use by a backyard guy with no air tools it's great. Very handy for pulling big CV joint nuts.

The black thing is a Honda specific deal for removing balancers. I got it at a local parts store (AutoZone I think) for about $25. The 2 of these together made quick work of pulling the damper!

Now the bad news...

The balancer has a chunk out of it where (I believe) the alternator belt rides :mad: I also noticed that there is was no key on the damper :confused: I also included the cam sprocket with a chunk out of it as well. There's a little chunk of metal gone where the keyway is.

It looks like some really ham-fisted [email protected] was into this thing before me. I'm not the greatest but c'mon... If the same monkey who did all this installed the head then it's a miracle it ran at all! There are some magic marker #'s on the head so it looks like it may be a junkyard item but who knows :confused:

I'm debating getting another balancer... Any input? I'm also pretty sure there should be a key in there?
 

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Parts list...

Figured I'd update this as I go. I always enjoy looking at threads concerning troubles I'm having so maybe this'll help/inspire someone else.

I'm debating getting another balancer... Any input? I'm also pretty sure there should be a key in there?
Parts diagram shows 2 keys. And a Timing Belt Guide. Balancer/pulley is $239/$172 after discount. Timing gear is only $63 after discount.

You might be able to get a welder to fill in the ding on Balancer? Or smooth it so it won't wear the belt excessively?

Parts list: http://www.hondapartsnow.com/parts-list/2000-honda-cr-v-5dr_lx_2wd-ka-4at/crankshaft-piston.html

Your documentation looks like it is done by a professional! NICELY DONE!

I am sure a lot of guys are benefiting from your experience. Thanks!

47
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I went ahead and ordered a new balancer for about $60 and a new key. After checking mine out it looks like it may have spun on the crank :eek: I have the timing cog key in place (Thank goodness!) and it appears that everything else is in order.

I was also missing the plastic timing cover part that goes against the head so I picked that up as well but now I'll have to sort out the bolts for it :p

I have the water pump and idler installed and I'm just waiting on the rebuilt head and gaskets. I ordered the head from an ebay seller and he's throwing in some cam gears but he's being dreadfully slow about getting it shipped :(

I did some reading about broken cam cap bolts and it seems like it's a common problem so I'll be extra careful when tightening them down. Specs say 7.2 ft/lbs...

I'll post some more pics when my parts come in.
 

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Great price...

I went ahead and ordered a new balancer for about $60 and a new key. After checking mine out it looks like it may have spun on the crank :eek: I have the timing cog key in place (Thank goodness!) and it appears that everything else is in order.

I was also missing the plastic timing cover part that goes against the head so I picked that up as well but now I'll have to sort out the bolts for it :p

I have the water pump and idler installed and I'm just waiting on the rebuilt head and gaskets. I ordered the head from an ebay seller and he's throwing in some cam gears but he's being dreadfully slow about getting it shipped :(

I did some reading about broken cam cap bolts and it seems like it's a common problem so I'll be extra careful when tightening them down. Specs say 7.2 ft/lbs...

I'll post some more pics when my parts come in.
Where did you find a balancer for $60?
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Where did you find a balancer for $60?
Ebay. Probably not as good as OEM but for sure better than the one I have! Seller is kaizenparts out of Florida.

I also ordered a Honda T'stat and gasket. I've read that it's best to use a genuine Honda part.


Parts breakdown for those interested:

Cat: $100
O2 sensors: $40
Front pipe: $53
Cat flange adapter: $27

Timing belt/idler/water pump: $60
Cylinder head/cam sprocket: $250
Head gasket: $83
Gasket set and bolts: $89
Throttle body/IACV gaskets: $21
T'stat/gasket: $19

Balancer/key: $69
Injector gaskets: $15
Timing Cover/bolts: $72

Spark plugs: $14
 

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I would caution about using the copper coat on the head gasket. Since they are using the stretch of the bolt to maintain pressure, it may interfere with getting to the proper tension on the bolts. If the manual says clean all surfaces (block, head and both sides of the gasket) I'd leave it out. This is just me speaking from years of experience building spacecraft where bolt tension is used under very extreme environmental conditions to keep things together.

Just trying to help from out here in the west coast bleachers. Good work, keep it up, I'm looking forward to a happy ending.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
I would caution about using the copper coat on the head gasket. Since they are using the stretch of the bolt to maintain pressure, it may interfere with getting to the proper tension on the bolts. If the manual says clean all surfaces (block, head and both sides of the gasket) I'd leave it out. This is just me speaking from years of experience building spacecraft where bolt tension is used under very extreme environmental conditions to keep things together.

Just trying to help from out here in the west coast bleachers. Good work, keep it up, I'm looking forward to a happy ending.
Thanks. And I feel ya man! I'm also one who believes that the dudes who designed the thing knows best :cool:

The only reason I'm considering CC is because I drove it quite a ways with the gasket blown between the cylinders.

In fact, there is still some discoloration in the area between the bores:

IMG_1677.jpg

This is after giving it a good going over with some 1000 grit sandpaper wrapped around a big machinists parallel. I know :rolleyes: grit and such around the cylinders not the best but I used oil to kind of wet sand it and cleaned the little bit of slurry up really well.

I kind of assumed that the gasket would sit "hard" against the raised area around the bores but this doesn't seem to be the case:

IMG_1679.jpg

Hard to see in the pic but the raised area of the gasket consists of 2 rings concentric to the bores separated by a thinner area between them.

But yea, I think you've convinced me to just put it together dry. Especially after looking at the gasket construction which has some bare metal exposed. Always a lot of voo-doo around head gaskets :cool:

After seeing the workmanship of the last bozo to work on this engine I'm not surprised it blew a gasket though... I've heard of guys reusing metal headgaskets so maybe he used the old gasket and bolts?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Not much happening but I do have most of the parts in. Still waiting for the head tho...

When I got the car someone had done a really poor hack-job with the exhaust. The front pipe was cut at the bracket location and a piece of tubing was poorly welded in place of the cat. In the process both O2 sensor bungs were lost so it was running in open loop mode. Fortunately the upstream O2 sensor plug is still in place but the down stream plug was cut off leaving just the cut wires :mad: I knew all this before "project head gasket"...

I ordered the stuff to straighten this mess out and the parts are finally here:

IMG_1680.jpg

New sensors, front-pipe, cat and cat adapter flange thing. I also ordered an O2 sensor extension wire and the plan is to splice it onto the cut wires so I'll have the plug in place for future sensor replacement. There's a lot of voo-doo surrounding splicing O2 sensor wires so I figured this was the best route. The cat and adapter came with bolts/gaskets and springs so I just need to round up a manifold/headpipe gasket...

The cat adapter flange came with a muffler clamp so the plan is to clamp it together and drive to a shop to have it welded.

The bolts that held the manifold to the front pipe were all buggered up and rounded so I had to use a saws-all to cut it out and chisel the bolts off :p Fortunately the studs/threads are still in good shape so I'm going to pick up some SS or brass nuts and reassemble with anti seize.

My guess is that the head was replaced before without removing the exhaust manifold. I'm glad it's out of the way now so it won't get in the way of placing the head cleanly on the block.

This poor little car looks as if it has had 2 shoddy repairs by fly-by-night outfits and was quickly on the way to becoming a real clunker :( I think (hope) I rescued it just in time :cool:

On a side note, the interior of the car is in GREAT shape and the undercarriage is clean as a whistle :D While waiting on engine parts I've installed an MP3 adapter: http://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/20-mobile-electronics/68706-2000-mp3-adapter-install.html a trailer hitch: http://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/26-racks-hitches-towing/68954-2000-draw-tite-hitch.html Replaced the visor clips and sent the clock off for repair :D While the tire is off I'm going to address the washer pump(s) which aren't working.
 

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You're a braver man than I am taking 1000 grit near open cylinders. Keep us informed as you make more progress. I'm sure we're all liking this vicarious wrenching. I know I am, I don't even have dirt under my finger nails from all of it.
 
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