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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
Use the information provided here at your own discretion.

This information is not intended as a guide for regular maintenance.



Here is the latest (Jan 2008) word from Honda about how to change the automatic transmission fluid, from the Jan 2008, Honda Service News Articles.

Due to confusion, I must add that this procedure was written for service technicians at a DEALER who will do this while on a lift. The word "flushing" also adds confusion. "Flushing" to Honda means doing a drain and fill.


Check Out the Latest Word on A/T Flushing

Some A/T repair procedures call for flushing the trans using Honda Genuine ATF-Z1 (and no substitutes). Problem is, where do you find the info to do that? It’s not listed in the S/Ms, and if you do an ISIS search,
you’ll find a few ServiceNews articles on this subject, but they’re rather dated, and none of them say the same thing. Even the most recent one (see “Revised A/T Flushing Procedure” in the December ’00 issue)
still mentions that old work horse—the PGM Tester—which we stopped supporting when the HDS first came on the scene.
NOTE: The term “flushing” refers to repeatedly draining and refilling the trans with Honda Genuine ATF-Z1. Don’t confuse it with aftermarket flush systems. American Honda still strongly recommends that
you avoid using them on any Honda vehicle.

The original procedure was written for simpler A/Ts that readily upshifted when you ran the vehicle on a lift. But A/Ts have come a long way since then, and most of the newer ones balk at shifting past 2nd gear
when on a lift, unless you work the shift lever a certain way.
In light of all this, we thought it was high time that the A/T flushing procedure got a facelift. So here’s the latest word on flushing that works for all A/Ts:

1. Set the parking brake, and raise the vehicle on a lift.
2. Drain the trans, and refill it with Honda Genuine ATF-Z1. Refer to the applicable S/M or to ISIS for details.
3. Start the engine, shift into Drive, and release the parking brake.
4. Push down on the accelerator pedal to raise the vehicle speed to 2,500 rpm.
• If the trans shifts past 2nd gear, go to step 5.
• If the trans won’t shift past 2nd gear, keep the engine speed at 2,500 rpm and shift from Drive to
Neutral and back to Drive. Then go to step 5.
5. Make sure that the trans shifts through all the forward gears and goes into torque converter lockup.
6. Let off the accelerator pedal, and press the brake pedal to drop the vehicle speed to zero. Shift into
Reverse and then into Neutral.
7. Shift into Drive, and repeat steps 4 thru 6 four more times.
8. Set the parking brake, and repeat steps 2 thru 6 two more times.
9. Drain the trans, and reinstall the drain plug with a new sealing washer.
10. Refill the A/T with ATF-Z1.

.
 

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Trans fluid change quantity

The manual states that 2.7 qts are required for a trans fluid change. I drained it today & 3 and a half qts came out. The fluid did cool & it still measures 3 and a half. Did anyone experience the same? (2007 CRV Auto 2WD)
 

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another question on auto trans fluid change

I just changed my fluid but have not started or run the car and now see this post about getting the car off the ground to do the procedure of running it to 2500 rpm etc. I have the awd and just got it and am trying to do what I can. It has 72,000 miles and I have no info on maintenance but car is in great shape. Do I have to get it off the ground or can it be driven slowly or run it throught the gears in driveway with brake on and idling like you would before checking fluid level on some cars. thanks for any help.
 

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Take it for a drive.

The procedure was written for Honda Service Centers where time is money. You don't have to worry about all the brouhaha about 2500 rpm etc. Take it for drive. I would go about 5 to 10 miles, make sure it goes through all the gears. Punch it down so that it down shift and put the transmission though its paces once or twice. Put in reverse and back up a bit. The idea is to mix the new fluid with the old remaining fluid left in the torque converter and transmission. With each additional change you drain out a mixture of new and old. By 3 changes you will have significantly high proportion of new fluid.

I just read your post again. The key to this is drain the fluid, refill and run the car, then drain again, refill, run the car, then drain and refill a third time. You don't need to run the car on the last refill. Your are draining and refilling 3 times. Running the car is mix the new with old. So you need a lot of fluid and it has to be genuine Honda automatic transmission fluid.



 

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thanks black pearl

I missed the 3 times drain and fill. So I need 6 more quarts of fluid to do it right it seems. I assume it is okay to drive some between the 2nd and 3rd drain and fill. My dealer parts is closed for holiday weekend. I would think driving it some would be good. The job is easy once I got the drain plug removed. So anytime you do a transaxle fluid change you need to do it three times?
 

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Changing The Fluid

Yes you can drive it around no problem. Honda does not want you to connect an external flushing machine to the transmission. I have read that theses things tend to move crud from harmless places and deposit them in sensitive places. So the problem is that the pan where the drain plug is only holds about 1/3 the volume of the ATF. The rest is in the torque converter and throughout the transmission. By changing it once your ratios of fluid are 33% new 67% old. Now mix it all up and change it again. Your going to dump 1/3 the volume of the transmission. But 2/3 of that volume is old oil. So you have improved the mix. Mix it all up again and change it a third time will improve the mix again. So why not change 4 or 5 times. At some point you begin taking more new oil out than old and you get diminishing returns.

So get some more oil and change it 2 more times. But you have to mix it inbetween each change or you are just dropping out all the new oil.



 

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Inline filter?

Why does H&A have an inline tranny filter listed in their 07-08 list of maintenance items? I don't see that listed as a step.
 

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In Line Filter

I read somewhere that the inline filter has no change interval. You only change it when it is plugged. How would you know it is plugged? That don't seem right. For all the more it costs, why wouldn't you change when you change the tranny fluid?



 

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The Official 3X Procedure is Actually a 4 X.

Am I missing something or is our 3 X procedure actually 4 X.

Step 2 is the first oil change.

Step 8 is the second and third oil change

Step 9 is the fourth and final oil change.

Wow, it is amazing what you find out when your read something.



 

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yep - I get 4 too

so, that's 2.7 x 4 or 10.8 quarts. I guess I buy 11 qts to do the change. Using H&A pricing and shipping, that's $108.16. Yikes.

Are folks really doing this four times?
 

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If you really want to save on time, start changing it out 1x only at about 15k. This is what I have been doing and this keeps the "new" fluid levels topped off and working good. As long as you don't try this first when you have 60k you should be fine.
 

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Diminishing Returns

Using 2007 4WD capacities, if you do the math, at the third refill, you have 5.4 quarts of new oil and 2.2 quarts of old in the transmission or 71% new oil. The 4th change only changes that to 81% new oil at 6.2 new and 1.4 old. Each change you progressively drain higher percentages of new oil and end up with diminishing returns. A fifth drain and refill only takes it to 87% new oil at 6.66 qts new and .93 old. This is assuming a 100% mixing between the changes.


EDIT: Badgerland, interesting concept. But some how doing 1X every 15k don't seem like the same thing as doing a 4X at 60000. It does sound like a good maintenance plan if you did a 3 X or 4 X at 60. Anyone know when the MMI calls for a change? I intend to do a 3X or 4 X next year at 30K.



 

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Well I don't worry about the cost so far as I bought 24 bottles of Honda ATF for $2 each from a friend who sold his CRV. My thoughts are that if you keep putting "newish" fluid in every 15k that it would be better off than waiting all the way to...say 60k and then doing the 3x or 4x whatever.

JM2C worth and my knowledge of Honda's can fill a thimble at best.:rolleyes:
 

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At Least You Can Fill A Thimble

More than I know. Anything I know about Hondas, I picked up here.

I can see merit in what you are doing, and you may be right, the addition of fresh oil every so often my be more beneficial than all in one whack over a long period of time. We have a engineer at work who is not quite a tribologist, but has done a lot of oil studies. I run this by him.



 

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Hat Off To Badgerland!

I consulted my engineering buddy at work about the 1 X every 15 K or 4 X at 60K ATF change question. I explained the deal with the 1/3 oil volume being changed, and sent him the link to Honda’s procedure.

First off I was wrong, my buddy is a Certified Lubrication Specialist and is a member of the Society of Tribologists and Lubricating Engineers.

STLE

Here is the question I posed to my Spiritual Adviser in Tribological Affairs:

“Here is the problem. Owner A. Runs his car for 60,000 miles and then performs the 4X transmission oil change per Honda’s procedure. So that at 60001 miles, he has 81% new oil and 19% old oil.

Owner B says. Hmmm. I would like to refresh the tranny juice more often. I will do a 1 X change every 15000 miles. So at the 60001 miles both cars have had 10 to 12 quarts of new transmission oil put into them. However owner B has doled his out over four 15,000 mile segments. So theoretically he would have still have the 19% original oil but 33% new oil and the remaining at various ages in between.

So the question is which is better for the vehicle. Owner A or owner B?”


And here is his answer:

For me this is a no-brainer. The periodic 1X method is by far the best.

There are two major factors at play….. wear particle generation and additive depletion.

With the 4X method you are running at 40K and 50K and 60K with ever increasing levels of wear particles. The factor is not linear. The more particles present, the greater will be the particle generation rate. With the 1X method you will be constantly flushing out some portion of the particles and should have experienced less particle generated wear when you reach the 60K mark.

Likewise with the additive consideration. With the 1X method you will never dip as low in additives as you will at 59K with the 4X method.

One caveat is that if you use the 1X method you cannot change over to the 4X method during the 60-120K period.***

Also, I really don’t like the thought of the power flush. I salute Honda for recommending against it. (I once tried it on a Corsica trany at the advice of my mechanic.
Very shortly thereafter a valve became clogged. Fortunately it was easy access for the trany shop so the bill was minimal. My local trany shop does not advise the power flush and does not offer it.)”



***I questioned what he meant by not changing over to the 4 X method. What he meant was that one can not use the 1 X at 15K method at 60K then decide to do the 4 X at 120 K with no additional 1 X changes. If you decide to go to the 4 X method with no further 1 X methods, then you should do the 4 X method at the beginning of the 4 X interval period.

Therefore if one did the 1X method up to 45 K, did a 4 X at 60 and a 4 X at 120, that would be acceptable.

Doing a 1 X up to and including 60 and a 4 X at 120 K is not acceptable.

The only exception I would take on this is that if you have an extended warranty that is valid for longer than 60K, I would use Honda’s procedure to keep your warranty in effect.

My hats off to Badgerland…the honorary tribologist of the month!



 

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ORRRRR....forget the whole drain, add, drive, drain, add, drive, drain, add......argh...I dont have time for that crap!

Simply drop the 3qts at the same time your dropping the oil. (or every other oil change is what I do).
 

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Flush Procedure 08 CRV EX-L

Thank you for the procedure for changing the tramission fluid, appreciate your time, take care. Mrclean.
 

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u know how they say drain, fill, drive, and repete 3 times? at my shop the car stays on the ground and theres an open pit, so we drain the trans fluid, fill it up, start the car and hold the brake pedal and go through the gears (reverse, n, drive etc), drain and repete 3 times... is this the wrong way to do it?
 
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