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As for temperature and RPMs and the Accord/Civic/CR-V configurations, if we assume the large engine cavity in the CR-V is what prevents the engine and radiator from reaching full operating temperature quickly, well that's still a problem for CR-V owners, even if the same problem doesn't happen with the same engine and same transmission in other Honda vehicles.
And, easily overcome by the CRV owner as well.

If the TSB was applied, that probably takes care of the issue. If it does not for a specific owner, or an owner has not had the TSB applied...... the simple solution is to put your CRV into sport mode until it is up to temperature, and just take the fuel economy hit for that period of time. That raises the rpms about 1K for the same driving conditions.
 

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Some of the more salty posters on the topic here seem convinced that the spark plugs will outlive the engine itself. :p

The best way to look at this is in terms of the total powertrain... ie: engine + CVT. A well tuned and mated engine+CVT is a much bigger factor in the life expectancy of the power train. An engine poorly matched with a CVT is going to have pre-mature end of life in many cases.

Happily, Honda appears to have a very well tuned and matched pair with the 1.5T and their latest generation CVTs. In fact I would submit that the 1.5T is the first Honda engine properly designed and tuned specifically for CVTs as this engine provide a very different torque profile then prior Honda engines and it was clearly designed with CVTs in mind.

As for total life cycle of the power train... I expect most manufacturers design todays vehicles with an expected 10 year life between rebuilds (that would be 120-150K miles... for the average driver). Chassis are generally designed for 15 years of useful life. Of course many powertrains will live longer then this... but the reality is.. everything else in the modern motor vehicle will be long obsolete at the 10 year mark.... given how much of the vehicle is electronics now days. From a practical standpoint, the days of the powertrain dictating the life expectancy of a vehicle are long gone now. But there will always be some enthusiasts that can and will rebuild and upgrade literally every system in a vehicle and be driving it 20 years after manufacture.. but this is pretty much the exception rather then the rule in modern consumer driving.
Wow I come back here after several months and it's still the came people bashing the CRV about oil dilution. I have to say @williamsji your pretty good to keep on going given that these same people will keep posting endlessly negative crap about the vehicle. Mine has been going great now for the last two years. No issues at all and I am even happier with my purchase since I stopped reading all the negative stuff in this thread.

The post @bbnn made above is a perfect example of why people should just avoid this thread and enjoy their vehicles. As he states he has had a great three year experience with his CRV, his only issue has been the oil rise. Now if he had never read these threads and just driven his vehicle he would have never stressed out about OD oil rise which is normal. He would have just enjoyed the great drive he leased.

Good luck Sir William, I am not going to be around to listen to Texas Toyota or rd0000 reply to my post as I rarely visit this site anymore. I suggest you take a break and stop stressing yourself over this thread.

Rob
 

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Good luck Sir William, I am not going to be around to listen to Texas Toyota or rd0000 reply to my post as I rarely visit this site anymore. I suggest you take a break and stop stressing yourself over this thread.

Rob
Heh.. no stress at all for me.. so I will continue on. :)

But I certainly understand your position of steering clear. (y)

I don't take the ad hominem attacks, attempts to discredit, or attempts to derail otherwise productive discussion, personally. I understand the tactic and I also know how to address it.... facts and data presented logically and in context generally prevail over emotional rants and stone throwing.

See... if we, collectively, just let the negative narrative run on OD... then when new owners come to the forum... they can become grossly misinformed about the issue and how to manage it.....because of the desire by some to prosecute a negative narrative at all costs .. sometimes deliberately to disuade people from buying a CRV, or causing owners to become fearful of their CRV. The right thing is to have full discussion, particualarly facts and data instead of emotion based rants... so I am happy to contribute, as required, to insure a full range discussion and not just a negative narrative, and then let other owners decide for themselves what makes sense and how to manage the issue... if the owner even has the issue.
 

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Sit down before you read this.
Someone in the FB CRV owners group just posted their Blackstone oil analysis and it was very good.
Contrary to some on here, they aren't all bad.


Sent from my LG-H700 using Tapatalk
 

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Interesting, wish I knew. The 1.5 and "its" turbo seem to be designed together for each other: unlike most engines which have the turbo added after the fact, but the 1.5 and Turbo seemed to be designed together for one purpose.

NOW, if only Honda can keep up its usually reliability. Can this new engine (combined with turbo) keep up reliability 8-10 years from now?
Acadia
Well this is the big trillion dollar question. It is pretty well established that OD in the 1.5 does not cause any catastrophic failure, at least within the first few years of ownership. Whether a large percentage of these engines fail "prematurely" depends on one's definition of "premature." And if that should be the case, if many of these engines do end up failing early, OD may or may not play a significant role in those failures. There are lots of moving pieces to this puzzle, and that's a big part of why this discussion seems to never die. It's complicted precisely because there are so many variables.

Personally, I'm generally not an early adopter of technology, and as far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on these newer, smaller, direct injection turbo engines, not only manufactured by Honda, but from all car manufacturers that are heading in this direction. The OD issue is part of the conversation, but even independent of OD in this specific vehicle, I prefer to go with an engine that has a more established track record.

Government regulations are dictating fuel economy standards that are not easy to reach. Going to turbo engines may help short term fuel economy, but may also shorten the overall usable lifespan of new vehicles. Combined with the fast-paced evolution of electronic systems within cars, a lot of vehicles are going to be on the road for fewer years and be driven for fewer total miles than vehicles built decades ago. Then they have to be crushed and recycled, but there's an environmental cost to that. It's not like 100% of a car can actually be salvaged. A lot of it goes to waste. Overall, these government-mandated requirements are probably not providing any net benefit to anyone except dealership owners. Cars are becoming more like cell phones and cell phones are becoming more like cars. I first noticed the similarities about 10-12 years ago, and since smart phones with flat touchscreens became prolific, the similarities have only grown stronger. The habits that people have developed have done nothing except to amplify the disposability of consumer products in this throw-away society.
 

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Wow I come back here after several months and it's still the came people bashing the CRV about oil dilution. I have to say @williamsji your pretty good to keep on going given that these same people will keep posting endlessly negative crap about the vehicle. Mine has been going great now for the last two years. No issues at all and I am even happier with my purchase since I stopped reading all the negative stuff in this thread.

The post @bbnn made above is a perfect example of why people should just avoid this thread and enjoy their vehicles. As he states he has had a great three year experience with his CRV, his only issue has been the oil rise. Now if he had never read these threads and just driven his vehicle he would have never stressed out about OD oil rise which is normal. He would have just enjoyed the great drive he leased.

Good luck Sir William, I am not going to be around to listen to Texas Toyota or rd0000 reply to my post as I rarely visit this site anymore. I suggest you take a break and stop stressing yourself over this thread.

Rob
hey i remeber you! haha, i think tghe best advice for majority of the owners here, who dont live in extreme cold places is just do your due diligence, if you are aware that there is a problem with oil dilution, you should do every step you can take to help minimize the problem and your crv will be happy

Sit down before you read this.
Someone in the FB CRV owners group just posted their Blackstone oil analysis and it was very good.
Contrary to some on here, they aren't all bad.


Sent from my LG-H700 using Tapatalk
the problem with blackstone, is i believe, based on the discusions of yore, was the gas reading wasnt super accurate since, another oil ab has some kind of spectroscopy or something like that i forgot, that would give more accurate readings of gas in oil. i forgot the name of the other oil lab but it was def more expensive than blackstone.
 

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This thread is a black hole of negativity that this forum and it's members do not need. The problem is not the vehicle, it's the idiots who keep dragging it down. My compliments to those who are doing their part to pull it back above water.

MODS, PLEASE DELETE THIS SILLY THREAD.
 

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MODS, PLEASE DELETE THIS SILLY THREAD.
Well, I for one has found this thread (haven't read the whole darn thing yet, still working on it) very educational. Yes there will be many disagreements but isn't this what these Internet threads all about? Threads like these, no matter how "ugh" they may be, are needed to education a few of us. I NEED THE EDUCATION. Please, have the patience to educate us ignorant folk!
Acadia
 

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hey i remeber you! haha, i think tghe best advice for majority of the owners here, who dont live in extreme cold places is just do your due diligence, if you are aware that there is a problem with oil dilution, you should do every step you can take to help minimize the problem and your crv will be happy
(y) (y)

the problem with blackstone, is i believe, based on the discusions of yore, was the gas reading wasnt super accurate since, another oil ab has some kind of spectroscopy or something like that i forgot, that would give more accurate readings of gas in oil. i forgot the name of the other oil lab but it was def more expensive than blackstone.
This is true, however... for owners with visible oil rise... Blackstone oil analysis pretty consistently shows OD @ >5% so while their fuel readout analysis is not as accurate as some.. it is definitely giving proper ranged estimates.

But again... the amount of fuel in the oil does not appear to be any indicator of anything qualitative, at least for this particular engine. A normally working engine will purge the fuel as you drive anyway, and the oil level on the dipstick needs to be well over an inch above the full mark before the engine will begin to throw error codes.. and in point of fact.. those codes are there to warn of an issue. That said.. there are some owners that are absolutely convinced that fuel in the oil is detrimental to the engine... even though there is no objective proof of that feeling.

The only sin on Honda's part is that they did not properly set the engine tuning to deal with extremely cold weather initially... which in turn created conditions where some engines never warmed up to temperature.. which IS a key fundamental in order for the engine to properly purge fuel from the oil during normal driving. Honda believes they have addressed this now in cold weather states and provinces with their TSB ... but some owners refuse to trust Honda on this.

Unfortunately, the issue has been further clouded early on with what very much appears to be some vehicles operating in warm weather having OD issues... and when Honda techs isolated the cause... more often then not.. it was one or more leaky injectors (which clearly is an issue that needed R&R).
 

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This thread is a black hole of negativity that this forum and it's members do not need. The problem is not the vehicle, it's the idiots who keep dragging it down. My compliments to those who are doing their part to pull it back above water.

MODS, PLEASE DELETE THIS SILLY THREAD.
Thread needs to stay... lest the mods have to deal once again with members constantly creating new threads on the topic (which is what drove the mods to force all discussion to this one thread to begin with).

Moreover.... this forum probably has the best overall discussion and sharing of viewpoints, concerns, advice to actually cope with the issue, etc. on the entire internet. Most other sites are simply cesspools of complainers.. not interested in understanding the issue but just wanting to burn everything Honda down to the ground. Some of them literally move from internet site to internet site and post the same exact complaints and rhetoric, sometimes deliberately for the dramatic effect.

My personal objective in staying engaged on this topic is to try to rely on known data and facts, logical theories that can be tested for validity, and avoid theatrics and rhetoric. I'm for reasoned discussion and exhange of ideas, without censorship via ad hominems. I'm not against someone being dramatic or rhetorical as part of their process of venting frustration... but it is largely fact free.. and emotion driven.

And while some are critical of anyone that posts anything longer then a twitter post count-limit.... too bad... this is a complicated issue, and soundbite prosecution of OD, of the CRV, and of Honda serves no constructive purpose, it simply causes misunderstandings and confusion at times. Anyone whose brain frys at 281 characters should simply choose to not read if it offends them. Other members actually want to learn and understand and soundbites simply won't do it for this topic. New members do join, and they deserve to see a full range discussion to better understand all aspects of the issue and how best to monitor and manage it as an owner ... not just a series of wild twitter style rant fests that go nowhere.
 

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(y) (y)



This is true, however... for owners with visible oil rise... Blackstone oil analysis pretty consistently shows OD @ >5% so while their fuel readout analysis is not as accurate as some.. it is definitely giving proper ranged estimates.

But again... the amount of fuel in the oil does not appear to be any indicator of anything qualitative, at least for this particular engine. A normally working engine will purge the fuel as you drive anyway, and the oil level on the dipstick needs to be well over an inch above the full mark before the engine will begin to throw error codes.. and in point of fact.. those codes are there to warn of an issue. That said.. there are some owners that are absolutely convinced that fuel in the oil is detrimental to the engine... even though there is no objective proof of that feeling.

The only sin on Honda's part is that they did not properly set the engine tuning to deal with extremely cold weather initially... which in turn created conditions where some engines never warmed up to temperature.. which IS a key fundamental in order for the engine to properly purge fuel from the oil during normal driving. Honda believes they have addressed this now in cold weather states and provinces with their TSB ... but some owners refuse to trust Honda on this.

Unfortunately, the issue has been further clouded early on with what very much appears to be some vehicles operating in warm weather having OD issues... and when Honda techs isolated the cause... more often then not.. it was one or more leaky injectors (which clearly is an issue that needed R&R).
you think blackstone would be enough? because our lease is up on january, and honestly were thinking of keeping the 17, its on the table, and i was planning on getting the oil analysed after 3 years, would be the perfect time imo, specially since the crv is mostly town driving.
 

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you think blackstone would be enough? because our lease is up on january, and honestly were thinking of keeping the 17, its on the table, and i was planning on getting the oil analysed after 3 years, would be the perfect time imo, specially since the crv is mostly town driving.
An oil analysis by Blackstone is a good way to see if you are having any abnormal wear components in your oil, which would be indicative of a mechanical issue of some kind that could result in eventual failure of some form. I have yet to see one posted by a forum member though were there were any signs of wear induced particles in the oil... so in my view it is unlikely to show you anything abnormal. But doing one certainly gives you some specific peace of mind with respect to your vehicle.

As for fuel content in the oil.. the best measure remains checking oil level each time you fuel and keeping track of the readings ... providing you know the actual oil level immediately after an oil chnage (since both dealers and independents have in fact been known to over fill on an oil change). If you are seeing no oil rise, or very little ... then you don't have an OD issue.
 

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I generally bypass your posts because they are verbose and argumentative. To quote you, others “misunderstand”, “distort what you said”, “ignore facts”, etc, and that is on this page alone. You state that you are an engineer and I assume you mean well but I do not know where you learned your “engineering” - obviously not where I learned mine.

Take the long posts you made on this page to “wasp09” and “CrazyMind2017”. There are so many misconceptions I would not know where to start. For instance, you stated: “Bottom line...CVTs are torque driven, not rpm driven. Granted there is always some connection between the two. ... The only reason the engine needs to rev higher when forcing a change of state in driving is driven by the physics of the CVT during a change of state.”
Huh! Why obfuscate the facts!
In school I was taught that Power equals Torque multiplied by RPM. This is elementary but don’t take my word for it, “H = T x RPM/5252, where H is horsepower, T is torque in pound-feet and 5252 is a constant that makes the units jibe. So, to make more power an engine needs to generate more torque, operate at higher rpm, or both.”

The 1.5L CR-V engine approaches peak torque at about 2,000 RPM and has a flat torque curve essentially after that, see chart below. The engine generates more power when accelerating, fighting a head wind, climbing a steep hill, etc by increasing RPMs - nothing to do with “the physics of the CVT”, whatever that means to you, and everything to do with the equation H = T x RPM. It is that simple.

No doubt you will respond to me with another long post telling me what you said to “wasp09”, that I have misunderstood or distorted what you stated. So go ahead and have the last word but keep in mind that saying so does not make it so.

Have a good day. :)

View attachment 136509
Thanks the clarification. There are just too many posts from Will for going through.

I am an engineer, even though not machanical, but I did come across power = torque x rotation speed in year 1 of my first engineering degree and high school physics more than 45 years ago.

To generate the same power from an engine, if we lower the rpm we have to increase the burn by increasing throttle (and/or compression in case of a turbo). More fuel burnt per cycle generates higher torque. If we keep the rpm low and just increase the burn to carry a heavy load, we may well be falling inside the LSPI zone. To protect the engine against LSPI, we have to use a richer fuel ratio. We cannot wait for LSPI to happen like regular knocking. The rich fuel ratio is to make sure no oxygen left after a power cycle so as to extinguish burning particles left over that may cause pre-ignition the next cycle... Rich fuel mixer which is bad in terms of OD, isn't restricted to cold engines.

There was actually an OD report about oil level increase right after driving CRV against strong wind at highway speed for long distance on a warm day. The same CRV showed no oil level increase driving with not against wind.

If you have a heavy CRV say driving a big family around or towing an not so aerodynmic trailer, check you oil level more often. :giggle:

BTW the published torque curve usually shows the maximum that the engine can generate at maximum burn per cycle. It operates at a lower torque if we are not running it at full throttle or compression, i.e. we can run an engine at different torque at the same rpm to matching the load to a certain extent as long as the maximum torque on the curve x rpm can handle that load.

In other words rpm is selectable to some extent by shifting gears. Looks like CRV does not always make the best choice in term of OD by operating the engine at an rpm too low to clear away from the LSPI zone. :(
 

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BTW the published torque curve usually shows the maximum that the engine can generate at maximum burn per cycle. It operates at a lower torque if we are not running it at full throttle or compression, i.e. we can run an engine at different torque at the same rpm to matching the load to a certain extent as long as the maximum torque on the curve x rpm can handle that load.
The torque curve for Honda's 1.5T engine is very different from most engine torque curves, including older Honda engine designs. It reaches maxium torque at relatively low rpm, and then runs essentially flat at maxium torque until about 1K below redline (not that these modern engines will actually let you red line). Clearly purpose built to feed torque hungry CVTs.

TEXASCRVs actually posted both the torque and horsepower curves in his post.. and unlike most engines.. where torque roughly follows horsepower in the curves until max horsepower is reached, this engine has very different torque characteristics. The powertrain very much does change rpm under load, to maintain torque, and with a very flat torque curve... it does so very smoothly with the CVT... unlike many such powertrains that essentially do not reach maximum torque until very high rpms and hence the engine is racing sometimes even in light load conditons to feed the CVT.

Your annecdote about driving at highway speed against the wind causing OD (per an oil analysis) is interesting..... but I'm not sure what to make of it really... since there are no details beyond that... such as the driving habit of the owner (lead foot, light foot, pacing with ACC, accelerating manually, engine temperature, outside temperature, fuel blend, etc). Nor is any information given as to what number of miles were driven in that condition vs other driving conditions. Generally speaking.... setting aside driving temperature, there are more reports of oil rise due to low throttle low rpm conditions.

Fuel trim data shared earlier in this thread indicates by the way that fuel blends are a factor in fuel feed richness, and hence oil rise with this engine. How much, and exactly how is not well defined yet. Short version though --> engine runs less rich under a range of driving conditions when running an E10 fuel blend, or running a higher octane.
 

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Forgive me for not having read the entire thread, but has anyone discussed what role the active shutter grille plays in regulating the operating temperature of the engine in both the 2.4 and the 1.5T engines in the gen5 CR-V?
 

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Forgive me for not having read the entire thread, but has anyone discussed what role the active shutter grille plays in regulating the operating temperature of the engine in both the 2.4 and the 1.5T engines in the gen5 CR-V?
Yes. Ad nauseum.

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The torque curve for Honda's 1.5T engine is very different from most engine torque curves, including older Honda engine designs. It reaches maxium torque at relatively low rpm, and then runs essentially flat at maxium torque until about 1K below redline (not that these modern engines will actually let you red line). Clearly purpose built to feed torque hungry CVTs.
You miss the point I was trying to point out. The maximum torque is just the top of the envelope that your engine can generate at a certain rpm. The torque you get actually depends on the amount of fuel burnt, hopefully on the throttle you apply (plus some engine control manipulations).

You have selection of gears (and throttle to match) if you are driving a manual and maintaining it at a fixed speed. You shouldn't use the maximum torque, i.e. flooring your gas pedal. You should have some choices, e.g. using 3rd gear, 4th, 5th...(till the max torque cannot keep the speed at that gear). The torque curve really does not matter unless CVT on your CRV is trying to force the engine to a rpm too low, then we need the maxmium torque to maintain the car speed.

Back to OD, to generate the same power, a higher torque would be required at lower rpm. The lower the rpm CRV manages to get to (thanks to the higher than normal ceiling at the lower rpm end of the torque curve) the more uvlnerable it is to LSPI. Higher torque means more burnt, the other factor for LSPI to happen. Turbo probably is already effective at the rpm as torque curve is flat, provides more leftovers to preignite than non-compressed operation...

If we have to drag torque curve into the OD discussion, torque curve that allows a turbo DI engine to stay in low rpm on load is bad for LSPI and makes OD worse.

The high torque at low rpm helps acceleration. That is good, but we should avoid using it continuously on load if we have OD in mind.

The engine control knows when to apply counter LSPI to avoid LSPI damage. It is hard to avoid transistions through LSPI zone completely. However if CVT chooses to settle at a rpm which calls for counter LSPI continuously, it is not a good design even though we may get away when loading is not always high enough.
 

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If we have to drag torque curve into the OD discussion, torque curve that allows a turbo DI engine to stay in low rpm on load is bad for LSPI and makes OD worse.

The high torque at low rpm helps acceleration. That is good, but we should avoid using it continuously on load if we have OD in mind.

The engine control knows when to apply counter LSPI to avoid LSPI damage. It is hard to avoid transistions through LSPI zone completely. However if CVT chooses to settle at a rpm which calls for counter LSPI continuously, it is not a good design even though we may get away when loading is not always high enough.
I understand your point, but you are making assumptions here when in point of fact....none of us know the specifics as to how Honda engineers design for avoiding LSPI and how good they are at it. It is not that hard to deal with.. as the circumstances are pretty specific and well characterized in the industry ...... it most often happens at low speeds (which is what the LS stands for) AND high load conditions.... something you would rarely see in a gen5 CRV...... though of course it is possible.... but for most driving conditions it is not likely at all. You would have to be pulling a full cargo load limit, uphill at slow speeds to put a CRV in that situation. A poorly mated engine and CVT pairing could also be a cause.. but this particular engine+CVT appears very well matched.

There certainly are no reports of LSPI incidents that I have seen in a factory tuned 1.5T engine from Honda. And while we can all speculate that low rpm in this engine makes it vulnerable to LSPI... we don't actually know that and making assumptions based on how other makers engines deal with the issue is a non sequitur. Same goes for LSPI persistence being a cause of OD, or the CVT "settling in at an rpm which calls for countering LSPI continously".

Given Honda's very strong record in engine design spanning multiple decades, I'm going to go with the odds strongly favoring that they in fact have properly designed to account for LSPI in this particular powertrain, and elegantly so. Honda designs very robust engines and engines that are tolerant to a range of variables without reliability issues. In watching several long youtubes of enthusiasts talking and asking questions directly with the lead Honda engineer for this engine, it has a lot of very sophisticated nuance in the design.. and is pretty impressive and innovative to be honest. I encouage you to spend some time finding and watching those videos.

In my view.. LSPI instances in this engine are likely related to fuel blends in some way more so than anything, though of course there are a range of variables at play simultaneously for LSPI. The engine runs better (according to fuel trim readouts) on an E10 fuel... more so even then higher octane. Reasons unknown, but I'm sure it's in the dymanic engine tuning somehow. So.. running suboptimally in dynamic tuning due to a particular fuel blend could be a causative factor.. but even that is a stretch I think. A consortium of vehicle manufacturers have been reseracing solutions for LSPI... and have found that specific oil blends show promise for significantly reducing LSPI.. which I find interesting, because the pursuit is focused on fuels and lubricants to overcome LSPI rather then dynamic tuning. https://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/10/p3-20101007.html Similar programs are underway by the oil industry.

Is OD rpm related at all? No clear signs one way or the other to be honest. What we do know is a cold engine cannot properly purge fuel from oil and that all DI engines do end up with some fuel in the oil. Cold running in cold weather IS known to be a cause of OD in this engine, and that in turn means that in cold weather running at low rpm is problematic because this engine is so efficient even at 70 degrees ambient.. the engine generally will not warm up to full temperature while simply idling in a CRV. It will warm up quickly ideling in an Accord however.. I have personally compared the two. For the CRV, this is probably even true to a lesser degree with the TSB fix applied which only addresses allowing the engine to come up to temperature quicker as well as addressing poor cabin heating.
 

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We can find a chart showing the LSPI zone here:


Url for getting to the chart directly:

1800 rpm is at the centre of the zone.

Good luck.
 

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I find it funny for those who find this thread uninteresting to come in here to give their worthless opinions and to proclaim that they'll stay out of it or to beg mods to close it. That my friend is pathetic.

For me, I don't even bother to click on those threads whose title doesn't appeal to me to begin with.

On a side note, this site should pay William for his time and energy on his active posting. Gosh, he seems to be on this forum all the time and posts constantly.
 
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