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I am surprised to say that my mechanic overfilled with oil when I had it changed recently. The level is at the top of the orange, or just slightly below, on the dipstick. I acknowledged to him that it holds 3.7 quarts and he eyeballed his container and added roughly 4 quarts. I checked it as soon as I got home. Also, I stood there with him and chatted about cars as he drained the old oil out. Yet, it appears that a portion of the old oil remained in the pan because the new oil is not as clear as the oil was that was in the engine when I bought it. He used full syn 0-20.

Is that too much oil and if so, is there an easier way to remove some oil other than dropping the pan and removing the drain plug?
I'm not surprised at all to see a 3.7Q requirement routinely filled with 4Q. Nature of the rounding error and the nature of oil coming in quarts/liters, except from maybe bulk dispensing lines.. which it would not surprise me are set to 1/4Q increments. :p Bulk dispensing lines have their own issues, mainly attention to detail on the part of the tech performing the service.

In my view.. considering how many times this particular engine is overfilled both at the factory and at dealerships.. often by what looks to be a full quart... you have nothing to worry about. Honda has published a chart back during the big OD flareup in China showing that this engine is fine with an oil fill 22mm above the full mark... which appears to be ~1.5 over the full mark. Beyond that.. the engine will start throwing codes and making tuning changes to protect itself from harm.
 

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I'm not surprised at all to see a 3.7Q requirement routinely filled with 4Q. Nature of the rounding error and the nature of oil coming in quarts/liters, except from maybe bulk dispensing lines.. which it would not surprise me are set to 1/4Q increments. :p Bulk dispensing lines have their own issues, mainly attention to detail on the part of the tech performing the service.

In my view.. considering how many times this particular engine is overfilled both at the factory and at dealerships.. often by what looks to be a full quart... you have nothing to worry about. Honda has published a chart back during the big OD flareup in China showing that this engine is fine with an oil fill 22mm above the full mark... which appears to be ~1.5 over the full mark. Beyond that.. the engine will start throwing codes and making tuning changes to protect itself from harm.
Thanks for your reply.

I would estimate that the oil level is sitting at 5mm or less above the full line. It's still not quite touching the top of the flat part inside the orange oval.

However, I will let my mechanic know on my next visit and ask him to measure out an exact amount to be added prior to adding it.

But I still wonder how much of the original old oil remains in the pan/engine when the filter and plug are removed and ample time is allowed to let the old oil drain out. Clearly, some of the old oil remained because there was a slight tint to the new oil when I checked it after it was serviced.

Perhaps I should ask my mechanic to add 3.5 quarts as a starting point and then check the level to see where it stands?
 

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My EX is at the 44000 mile mark and I am happy to report that the oil level on the dipstick has stabilized at the "full" level. It no longer seems to be increasing between oil changes. Maybe the rings have seated? It still alarms me how quickly the oil becomes black after an oil and filter change. This is my first direct- injection car.
 

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My EX is at the 44000 mile mark and I am happy to report that the oil level on the dipstick has stabilized at the "full" level. It no longer seems to be increasing between oil changes. Maybe the rings have seated? It still alarms me how quickly the oil becomes black after an oil and filter change. This is my first direct- injection car.
That's encouraging to hear. I bought my 2017 EX with 25k miles. Oil smelled like gas and was at the very top of the orange marker when I checked after I brought it home. Did an initial oil change right away and after about 800 miles, the level started to rise again. Oil smelled like gas again. I'm at 30k now.
I drive 66 miles on my daily commute, pretty much all highway. So, the car sees very little short trips/stop and go.
I hope I have the same results and it "settles in" and stabilizes as yours did.

Have you noticed gas smell recently now that it's not rising?
 

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Here’s a bit of larger population objective data to consider on this topic. Blackstone labs does tons of UOAs and reports “Universal Averages” (i.e. results for the same manufacturer’s engine type) to go along with each.

Blackstone reports Honda 1.5Ts show an average of 16 ppm of iron based on an average 4,900 mile oil change interval. This equates to 3.26ppm/1,000 miles.

The preceding K24W engine used in Accords and CRVs on average shows 13ppm of iron based on an average 7,700 mile oil change interval. This equates to 1.69ppm/1,000 miles.

The significance of this can be debated, of course, but it is interesting. Iron typically comes from camshafts (an identified 1.5T issue), cylinder walls and timing chains. Given a 1.5 liter engine has considerably less cylinder area than a 2.4, one might reasonably expect lower wear metal results.

Does 3.26ppm/1,000 miles mean the sky is falling because of fuel dilution? Probably not. But a wear reading nearly double the predecessor engine isn’t altogether comforting.

The naysayers are now welcome to explain why this doesn’t matter, or is an unfair comparison. But there’s been a constant complaint that this thread has nothing new. So here’s something.
 

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Has anybody connected a scanner? Here’s what I see. There are two temp sensors, ECT1, located in the engine, and ECT2 located in the radiator. This gives a great view of the thermostat. Engine temps rise to 180 before ECT2 moves. ECT1 will never reach 192 until the radiator temp climbs higher than I’ve ever seen it (January in MN), which is 58 degrees. Normal driving, once “Warmed up”, ECT1 stays in the 170-180 range, and ECT2 cools to 30-40. Does anyone know what Honda says ECT1 should be? Part of my fix (old school) would be to increase the thermostat 10 degrees hoping to ”boil off” more gas from the oil.
 

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Here’s a bit of larger population objective data to consider on this topic. Blackstone labs does tons of UOAs and reports “Universal Averages” (i.e. results for the same manufacturer’s engine type) to go along with each.

Blackstone reports Honda 1.5Ts show an average of 16 ppm of iron based on an average 4,900 mile oil change interval. This equates to 3.26ppm/1,000 miles.

The preceding K24W engine used in Accords and CRVs on average shows 13ppm of iron based on an average 7,700 mile oil change interval. This equates to 1.69ppm/1,000 miles.

The significance of this can be debated, of course, but it is interesting. Iron typically comes from camshafts (an identified 1.5T issue), cylinder walls and timing chains. Given a 1.5 liter engine has considerably less cylinder area than a 2.4, one might reasonably expect lower wear metal results.

Does 3.26ppm/1,000 miles mean the sky is falling because of fuel dilution? Probably not. But a wear reading nearly double the predecessor engine isn’t altogether comforting.

The naysayers are now welcome to explain why this doesn’t matter, or is an unfair comparison. But there’s been a constant complaint that this thread has nothing new. So here’s something.
This is good info. Can you show us how to compare between vehicles?
 

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Here’s a bit of larger population objective data to consider on this topic. Blackstone labs does tons of UOAs and reports “Universal Averages” (i.e. results for the same manufacturer’s engine type) to go along with each.

Blackstone reports Honda 1.5Ts show an average of 16 ppm of iron based on an average 4,900 mile oil change interval. This equates to 3.26ppm/1,000 miles.

The preceding K24W engine used in Accords and CRVs on average shows 13ppm of iron based on an average 7,700 mile oil change interval. This equates to 1.69ppm/1,000 miles.

The significance of this can be debated, of course, but it is interesting. Iron typically comes from camshafts (an identified 1.5T issue), cylinder walls and timing chains. Given a 1.5 liter engine has considerably less cylinder area than a 2.4, one might reasonably expect lower wear metal results.

Does 3.26ppm/1,000 miles mean the sky is falling because of fuel dilution? Probably not. But a wear reading nearly double the predecessor engine isn’t altogether comforting.

The naysayers are now welcome to explain why this doesn’t matter, or is an unfair comparison. But there’s been a constant complaint that this thread has nothing new. So here’s something.
Metal content in an oil sample can be a bit misleading.

There is always some old oil left in the system during an oil change, including the metal contaminates.

If you do an immediate oil analysis the metals will be high for the number of miles driven due to the left over contaminates. This results in it looking like the wear is high, but do the same testing again on the same oil, just more miles, and the increase in ppm looks better because it will level off.

The testing needs to be done on oil with approximately the same amount miles/time on the engine to get an accurate reading.

So 4,900 miles compared to 7,700 miles doesn’t give you any accurate or comparable data.

Also the oil capacity is different between these engines, so even the same amount of metal will be diluted Into different quantities of oil.

I’m not saying anything about the wear characteristics of either engine, just that nothing can be determined from these results.
 

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Thanks for your reply.

I would estimate that the oil level is sitting at 5mm or less above the full line. It's still not quite touching the top of the flat part inside the orange oval.
Here’s a bit of larger population objective data to consider on this topic. Blackstone labs does tons of UOAs and reports “Universal Averages” (i.e. results for the same manufacturer’s engine type) to go along with each.

Blackstone reports Honda 1.5Ts show an average of 16 ppm of iron based on an average 4,900 mile oil change interval. This equates to 3.26ppm/1,000 miles.

The preceding K24W engine used in Accords and CRVs on average shows 13ppm of iron based on an average 7,700 mile oil change interval. This equates to 1.69ppm/1,000 miles.

The significance of this can be debated, of course, but it is interesting. Iron typically comes from camshafts (an identified 1.5T issue), cylinder walls and timing chains. Given a 1.5 liter engine has considerably less cylinder area than a 2.4, one might reasonably expect lower wear metal results.

Does 3.26ppm/1,000 miles mean the sky is falling because of fuel dilution? Probably not. But a wear reading nearly double the predecessor engine isn’t altogether comforting.

The naysayers are now welcome to explain why this doesn’t matter, or is an unfair comparison. But there’s been a constant complaint that this thread has nothing new. So here’s something.
I'm no educated pro but I would think that forced induction plays a part advanced wear readings in the oil compared to the results from a naturally aspired engine. It's been said for eons that turbo motors wear our faster than non-turbo motors.
 

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Metal content in an oil sample can be a bit misleading.

There is always some old oil left in the system during an oil change, including the metal contaminates.

If you do an immediate oil analysis the metals will be high for the number of miles driven due to the left over contaminates. This results in it looking like the wear is high, but do the same testing again on the same oil, just more miles, and the increase in ppm looks better because it will level off.

The testing needs to be done on oil with approximately the same amount miles/time on the engine to get an accurate reading.

So 4,900 miles compared to 7,700 miles doesn’t give you any accurate or comparable data.

I’m not saying anything about the wear characteristics of either engine, just that nothing can be determined from these results.
As anticipated. I agree the only way to get an absolute answer would be to operate a large number of engines under identical conditions, tear then down and measure tolerances compared to new. But we don’t have that, do we? So here’s a data point. Anyone that has a better, large population, objective measure please post.

And anyway, showing more absolute iron wear metals in 4,900 miles than the predecessor engine did in 7,700 suggests there’s simply more wear.
 

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As anticipated. I agree the only way to get an absolute answer would be to operate a large number of engines under identical conditions, tear then down and measure tolerances compared to new. But we don’t have that, do we? So here’s a data point. Anyone that has a better, large population, objective measure please post.

And anyway, showing more absolute iron wear metals in 4,900 miles than the predecessor engine did in 7,700 suggests there’s simply more wear.
It doesn’t indicate more wear, reread my post, there is no way to compare these results with the information supplied.
 

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Doesn't ppm account for different capacities? It's essentially a percentage, isn't it? It's how many particles of a substance (iron in this case) are present in one million particles of something else (oil in this case).
 

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Yes it does. So if a new CRV had a sump capacity of 10 quarts the ppm would be considerably lower. But the 1.5T actually has more oil capacity/liter of displacement than the 2.4.

Again, I acknowledge there are lots of variables here and a precise comparison is not possible. But I thought it might be of interest.
 

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There is always some old oil left in the system during an oil change, including the metal contaminates.
This is why I think it's important to do the first oil change on a new vehicle sooner rather than later. Most modern vehicles do not use break-in oil from the factory, but on the chance that some do, I would target the first oil change somewhere around 2000-2500 miles. Get all the particles out of the oil as soon as possible. The filter can only capture so much. If you know for sure that a particular vehicle does not use break-in oil, I would do the first oil change even earlier, around 1200-1500 miles. If your engine has break-in oil, it's not good to switch it out too soon, because it's probably intended to provide some long-term conditioning treatment to the engine parts.
 

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Doesn't ppm account for different capacities? It's essentially a percentage, isn't it? It's how many particles of a substance (iron in this case) are present in one million particles of something else (oil in this case).
No, it only tells you what’s in the small sample supplied.

That’s why large commercial trucks hold a great deal of oil, you can drive much longer and not over work the oil, or build up too many contaminates.
 

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There is far more to understand about getting meaningful and useful information from a UOA that it appears at first glance.
 

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Here’s a bit of larger population objective data to consider on this topic. Blackstone labs does tons of UOAs and reports “Universal Averages” (i.e. results for the same manufacturer’s engine type) to go along with each.

Blackstone reports Honda 1.5Ts show an average of 16 ppm of iron based on an average 4,900 mile oil change interval. This equates to 3.26ppm/1,000 miles.

The preceding K24W engine used in Accords and CRVs on average shows 13ppm of iron based on an average 7,700 mile oil change interval. This equates to 1.69ppm/1,000 miles.

The significance of this can be debated, of course, but it is interesting. Iron typically comes from camshafts (an identified 1.5T issue), cylinder walls and timing chains. Given a 1.5 liter engine has considerably less cylinder area than a 2.4, one might reasonably expect lower wear metal results.

Does 3.26ppm/1,000 miles mean the sky is falling because of fuel dilution? Probably not. But a wear reading nearly double the predecessor engine isn’t altogether comforting.

The naysayers are now welcome to explain why this doesn’t matter, or is an unfair comparison. But there’s been a constant complaint that this thread has nothing new. So here’s something.
I like the way you approached this... up until you began to lead into speculative conclusions from the data and inviting "naysayers" to prove to you there is nothing to be concerned about here.

Yes.. on any given UOA sample from any engine, you are likely to see minor variations from oil sample to oil sample... even from the same exact engine. Reasons: lots of different driving variables at play. Further.. you are comparing two entirely different engine designs. Yet drawing conclusions anyway.

Now... is 13ppm bad? Is 16 ppm bad? Even Blackstone raises zero yellow or red flags on these levels.

Does ppm/1000miles driven mean anything.. anything at all? Not that I can find... so you have precipitated your own metric here.

But before someone starts throwing fanboi rocks at me yet again.... here is what Bob The Oil Guy has to say about iron ppm numbers in an oil analysis. Why iron ppm numbers are NOT good wear indicators.

And according to rsareliability.com the normal limits in terms of gas engines is 100-200ppm before there is concern http://www.rsareliability.com/Oil Analysis Tables.pdf page 3

There is a ton of good objective analysis of what iron counts in engine oil mean, and when they are and are-not a problem looking for a solution. I found this one comment particularly interesting in the context of what you presented here:

"When oil is changed frequently, a higher iron wear metal count will be seen in the oil analysis results. There are two reasonable explanations for this phenomenon - residual oil and tribo-chemical interaction. Studies have shown that elevated wear levels after an oil change can be directly linked to chemical reactions of fresh additive packages." source: Surprising Findings from Oil Analysis of Automotive Engines

Given that you are comparing a K24 engine series with average oil change intervals of close to 8000 miles vs L15B7 engines with average oil change intervals of close to 5000 miles.. the above comment is very informative as to causes of seeing a bit higher ppm Fe.


Basically.... you have interesting data with absolutely no objective way to make use of it in the context of anything quantitative about engine operation or reliability.
 

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EX with 16,000 miles. Oil reads 0.25” above full marker (slightly above orange). Same place it was 1,000 miles earlier and the same place its been reading over the 10,000 miles before that.
 

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My EX is at the 44000 mile mark and I am happy to report that the oil level on the dipstick has stabilized at the "full" level. It no longer seems to be increasing between oil changes. Maybe the rings have seated? It still alarms me how quickly the oil becomes black after an oil and filter change. This is my first direct- injection car.
That's encouraging to hear. I bought my 2017 EX with 25k miles. Oil smelled like gas and was at the very top of the orange marker when I checked after I brought it home. Did an initial oil change right away and after about 800 miles, the level started to rise again. Oil smelled like gas again. I'm at 30k now.
I drive 66 miles on my daily commute, pretty much all highway. So, the car sees very little short trips/stop and go.
I hope I have the same results and it "settles in" and stabilizes as yours did.

Have you noticed gas smell recently now that it's not rising?
Yes there is a gasoline smell on the dipstick, perhaps not as bad as before. We also use the car for daily commute on flat highways in SanDiego area.
 
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