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Discussion Starter #1
Hello

I have a 2006 Executive i- ctdi which has a strange rattle at 2,000 revs. I posted some time ago with this problem but had no luck in diagnosing the problem. I thought I would try again with this new post as things have moved on a bit.

The History in brief is that this is a high mileage vehicle with 145,000 miles on the clock. It is well maintained and the engine seems very sound burning virtually no oil at all. It goes very well. The rattle comes in at almost precisely 2,000 rpm and lasts as long as you hold it there. BUT recently ( over the last year) it has got worse and occurs almost all the time even in 6th on the motorway. I would say it is worse in France (which is hotter) and possibly worse when pulling harder, say, uphill but it can happen at any time. (Old post: Rattle at 2000 revs)

I have had various tests undertaken and checked all the usual things like the bolts on the exhaust cover. All fail to show the problem and the local main dealer has been unable to find the fault. So, not one to give up easily, I have persevered with the excellent mechanic who looks after the car and he has discovered the following.

There is, at the front of the engine, a large valve of some description which I believe is part of the exhaust gas recirculation system. The mechanic discovered that if this is disconnected from the vacuum system and a separate vacuum applied to the valve at idle, the engine quietens down.

I show a picture of this valve highlighted with an arrow.

Honda engine cropped.jpg

I am wondering if anyone else has experience of problems with this component and if it could be source of the rattle at 2,000 revs which is quite pronounced and intrusive when driving. It looks very expensive and therefore I am reluctant just to change it in case it is not the fault.

Any thoughts/knowledge gratefully received

Adrian
 

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I can sympathise but cant offer a solution. I've had a few CRVs (along with work colleagues) and a lot of them have this rattle. All the cars have next to no miles on them so its not a mileage thing. It only happens on light throttle? Boffin calls it diesel rattle and its nothing to worry about.
 

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Hello Ade,

I suspect with the age / mileage of your CRV that you have bad injectors and they are causing diesel knock. Suggest you have the injectors serviced.

Further to the above, do a google search on diesel knock.

Hope this helps.

Kev
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thank you both.

I think the point about the injectors is well worth a further look. The noise is in my opinion is at the top of the engine, however the peculiar thing is the rattle ,which could be a form of diesel rattle, appears to be out of synch with the normal diesel rattle? Dose anyone happen to know of a test for the injectors? Or indeed for the erg valve?

Once again hank you for taking the trouble to reply,
Adrian
 

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Please note this post is not my work, but taken from another site and may help you.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Posts elsewhere on this site suggested the EGR valve as chief suspect, so what follows are brief instructions and photos on how to check this yourself.

Note, you may be advised to remap your engine but this will NOT remove the coking/tar from your inlet manifold and may continue to cause poor performance. By all means do both but at least clean the inlet manifold first.

This task takes about 1 hour to strip and rebuild, with 15 minutes or more to clean your EGR valve and inlet manifold. You may opt to remove the front grille and cross beam for better access if you lack hand strength/experience of working in tight spaces.

1. Purchase replacement seals. These have compression lips and may not achieve proper sealing on your engine if you re-use old seals. Pt no’s H18715RSRE01 & H18722RBDE01. £11.25 plus £2.25 VAT. Your dealer will know what to order if you ask for the EGR valve seals and give them your ‘reg’.

2. Purchase/obtain a strong bottle cleaner, strong rubber gloves and an empty spray bottle/can.

3. Tools required: Must have a ¾” ratchet and 12mm and 10mm Sockets. Nice to have ¼” ratchet and similar sized long/short sockets and spanners for comfort.

4. Slightly warm engine. Dissimilar metal temperatures will aid bolt removal. They take a strong pull and ‘break’/undo with a similar sound to wheel nuts.

5. Remove plastic top cover. 4 nuts. 10mm.

6. Remove dipstick attachment bolt. Rotate dipstick away from EGR valve to improve access. Optionally remove altogether. Disconnect small rubber tube from engine end (not the EGR end as this is fragile)

7. Locate bolt (marked with white arrow) and remove this FIRST. This needs careful attention to knuckles and adjacent fan/radiator assy. 12mm. Remove second bolt in similar fashion.

8. Locate remaining 2 bolts and 2 nuts and remove. 12mm. Remove valve and discard seals.

9. Clean EGR valve. Mine was 70% blocked.

10. Use Spray bottle to aid with Inlet manifold sludge removal. I used petrol and a rugged, bristled, bottle cleaner. This takes some care and dexterity.
DO NOT USE INSERT ITEMS INTO THE MANIFOLD WHICH MAY BREAK OR BECOME LODGED.

11. Assemble new seals to manifold and pipe. Refit EGR valve, tighten the two bolts removed first then the manifold bolts/nuts in sequence (All 22NM if so inclined).

12. Secure/refit dipstick, EGR valve rubber tube and top cover.

Start normally and check for dipstick leaks. My car has just passed 50 miles since cleaning and is running without hesitation at all rpm. Sweet.

Finally. I too have been economising by running in top gear on supermarket diesel. Inevitably this has led to gross contamination with coke and sludge. I will be changing my running habits and fuel supplier from now on.

Here’s to the next 100000.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hello Kev. Your article is very interesting and thank you for taking the time to find it and send it on; do you happen to know what symptoms the car in question was displaying before the author did the work on the valve etc.?

I have seen reference in other posts from a few years ago about a rattle which sounded similar to the one I experience but there did not seem to be a definitive answer anywhere. However the erg valve was mentioned as a possibility. The difference in my case is that the mileage is high were as the vehicles mentioned all appeared to be quite new.

The article you have posted mentions supermarket fuel might be a contributing factor and of course when we are in France we buy the cheapest diesel and it is in France that we notice the problem more! However I don't think this is the whole answer as I tried using BP special diesel (which cost a fortune) last Autumn and the rattle still occurred all be it spasmodicly.

Regards Adrian
 

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Hello Kev. Your article is very interesting and thank you for taking the time to find it and send it on; do you happen to know what symptoms the car in question was displaying before the author did the work on the valve etc.?

I have seen reference in other posts from a few years ago about a rattle which sounded similar to the one I experience but there did not seem to be a definitive answer anywhere. However the erg valve was mentioned as a possibility. The difference in my case is that the mileage is high were as the vehicles mentioned all appeared to be quite new.

The article you have posted mentions supermarket fuel might be a contributing factor and of course when we are in France we buy the cheapest diesel and it is in France that we notice the problem more! However I don't think this is the whole answer as I tried using BP special diesel (which cost a fortune) last Autumn and the rattle still occurred all be it spasmodicly.

Regards Adrian

Hi Ade, Same symptoms as you.

Happy CR-Ving

Kev
 

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I can sympathise but cant offer a solution. I've had a few CRVs (along with work colleagues) and a lot of them have this rattle. All the cars have next to no miles on them so its not a mileage thing. It only happens on light throttle? Boffin calls it diesel rattle and its nothing to worry about.
+1

Had a 2005 and a 2009 i-CTDI CR-V ... and both of them had this rattle around 2000rpm under light throttle since new.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hello all

In have not had the opportunity of opening up the erg valve as suggested yet, but I certainly will be doing so before going off to France in September.

Nevertheless I thought people might be interested in an experience I had last Friday.

I was driving down the motor way and all was fine say 70 mph, minding my own business, when suddenly there was a big bang and the power dropped. I thought I had lost a piston or something major. Smoke pouring out of the exhaust. Pulled over to the hard shoulder and called the recovery service.

Got to follow to a safe spot on the hard shoulder where the mechanic diagnosed the problem as being a blow out on the input side of the turbo. The jubilee clip on the pipe was completely gone and of course the pipe had blown off one end.

New clip supplied and everything was back to normal. What a relief the last time I had such a problem in my Landrover 300tdi discovery the whole engine was wrecked but that is another story.

The rattle of course continues.

Regards

Adrian
 

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Had a 2005 CR-V CTDi at 20k at 3 years old until 45k at 5 years old, and it had this rattle. Garage said it was normal. I just drove the car and stopped worrying about it. It would only do it when accelerating up to 2000rpm though, not cruising at that rpm.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
OK so things have moved on.

Following the advice of UK-Kev, I decided to do the decoke on the inlet under the egr valve.

Recent History
The problem has been getting more frequent and noticed a slight pause in power at 2.000 rpm. Mechanic and I took vehicle for a run before commencement of work but only able to get problem to occur once (beginning to think I am imagining things).

The work
Stripped off the manifold under the valve. See picture.
Unit.jpg
DSCF3640.jpg DSCF3631.jpg DSCF3629.jpg


See the amount of crud in the inlet manifold and on the edge of the manifold for the egr valve. I would say 1/4 closed off. But, even more, there was a huge amount of crud in the manifold itself - very soft black carbon.

The treatment
Break off crud around manifold and shove finger into the main manifold and remove as much sticky crud as possible. (suprisingly large amount.) Then the mechanic ran a load of manifold cleaner for turbo diesels straight into the main manifold with intercooler pipe disconnected (engine running).

The result
Well so far the rattle has not re-occurred at 2,000 revs. However, I have not had the opportunity to go on a long trip. The engine appears to rev more freely past 2,000 and there is no pause at 2,000 rpm. She seems a little bit more sprightly!

Conclusion
It is too soon to tell if the problem is cured but this exercise is well worth doing for removing the crud alone. Remember this is a high mileage vehicle with 152,000 british miles on the clock. (I understand that modern common rail turbo diesels do suffer from this problem). So has it been worth doing? I most definitely think so. It does make you wonder what is going on in the cylinders and on top of the valves though.

Hopefully, it is now ready for south-west France in the autumn. I will keep you posted if things all go wrong.
 

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I just sold my 190000 mile CRV, when I bought it it did make the rattle frequently. It made it less and less as it got older, in the last 15/20k it only made the noise 3 or 4 times, so the message is service regularly (not necessarily Honda), use good synthetic oil and just keep driving it!
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Update 1st August 13

OK so I have now done about 400 miles in the car since the job. So far so good I have not had the rattle once. However I am a cautious individual and so will not be completely convinced until the real test in October. That said it is encouraging especially as it has been hot and the problem did not occurred in places it has previously. Of course the problem has always been intermittent so maybe I have just been lucky over the last few miles.
 

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Update 1st August 13

OK so I have now done about 400 miles in the car since the job. So far so good I have not had the rattle once. However I am a cautious individual and so will not be completely convinced until the real test in October. That said it is encouraging especially as it has been hot and the problem did not occurred in places it has previously. Of course the problem has always been intermittent so maybe I have just been lucky over the last few miles.

Hiya, Glad to here that the problem is fixed, please keep us posted.

Regards,

Kev
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hiya, Glad to here that the problem is fixed, please keep us posted.

Regards,

Kev
Hi Kev well its all down to you. Thanks I was beginning to think I was imagining things but the car is definitely better for doing the job. I will indeed keep you all posted as I think this is quite a serious issue which people need to know about. Apparently this coking up thing is common on high mileage common rail diesels. It is to do with the function of the erg valve.

Anyway thanks once again
Adrian
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Hello again from a year ago

Here is the update on my CRV.

All was looking good for the first few thousand miles and in that time I only experienced the rattle on one occasion, as before going up hill on a light throttle. However when I went to France in October I was back on the Supermarket diesel; and you guessed it the rattle returned. Not as bad as previously but certainly there. This corresponds with first noticing this problem which was also in France, what 4 years ago now.

Having returned to the UK the rattle has diminished although it still occurs occasionally going uphill.

So the diesel does look to be the main but possibly not the only culprit. I understand that the French put more Bio Diesel in there Gazoil which may be an explanation, other different additives may also be present? In the UK I use Shell or Esso regular diesel.

Any thoughts?

Adrian

Just an after thought; I still think the job was well worth doing and matters are still much better than before the operation.
 

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Hello again from a year ago

Here is the update on my CRV.

All was looking good for the first few thousand miles and in that time I only experienced the rattle on one occasion, as before going up hill on a light throttle. However when I went to France in October I was back on the Supermarket diesel; and you guessed it the rattle returned. Not as bad as previously but certainly there. This corresponds with first noticing this problem which was also in France, what 4 years ago now.

Having returned to the UK the rattle has diminished although it still occurs occasionally going uphill.

So the diesel does look to be the main but possibly not the only culprit. I understand that the French put more Bio Diesel in there Gazoil which may be an explanation, other different additives may also be present? In the UK I use Shell or Esso regular diesel.

Any thoughts?

Adrian

Just an after thought; I still think the job was well worth doing and matters are still much better than before the operation.
Hiya Ade,

having worked with diesel engines for over 40 years, I can tell you that bad diesel will cause all sort of problems - do a web search against diesel knock.
FYI I've started using Shell Nitro diesel costs a bit more but getting better MPG, plus it runs a lot cleanner than most other diesel fuels and from the oil analysis is not prone to oil cloging as much as other fuels.

BTW I do not work for Shell and get my oil analysis done as part of my job.

You should also note that Honda do not endorse using Bio Diesel fuels in there engines.

Hope the above helps

Rgs,

Kev
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Hello Kev

Nice to hear from you again.

Yes this a bit of a facer; I checked and apparently nearly all French Diesel contains 5% Bio diesel. So it begs the question how do Honda/CRV owners get on in France? Do Honda have different engine settings for France, or do they not sell diesels there at all?

Presumably the use of this 5% Bio diesel is not doing any actual harm to the engine, just producing this annoying rattle every now and again.

We go to France at least once and sometimes twice or more times a year including booze cruises, we were there last week buying diesel at E 1.29 a litre which equates to £1.06 a litre. Our cheapest garage here has it at £1.29 per litre for regular. The Vpower is lot more expensive, I did try this before we did the job but it made no difference. In fairness thought I have not used it on a long term basis to evaluate it, frankly I cant afford it.

This whole issue is probably a bit outside the remit of this thread but it would be interesting to hear other peoples experience of diesel with a Bio content or indeed if they have been running on higher % of bio for example 50/50 or even 100% as long as it is the right grade. From one website I viewed apparently only the Volkswagen Group say there cars can run properly with these higher bio content diesels.

Just as an aside I used to have a Land rover with a 300 tdi engine 2.5lt, I was reliably informed it would run on old chip oil, I never tried it.

Adrian
 

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Hi Ade,

It’s all part of the EEC emissions directive (see web link below) as you can see we are currently on EURO 6 Your car was designed to operate on Euro 4 / 4.5 and yes I agree trying to find good quality fuel in France / Europe in general is a nightmare. We holiday in France and my advice is to always find a well-known fuel supplier, e.g. Esso, Mobile, and stay away from supermarket suppliers.
I also recommend a good fuel cleaner every 6 to 8 tank fill up’s.
Regarding your comment on fuel costs, yes I know what you mean and I have started using low priced fuel and only using the V power diesel every 4 tank, saves having to purchase fuel cleaner.
Getting back to the 5% bio fuel used in Europe, basically nobody knows the long term damage, or benefits of this yet…. I can only speak of the many issues of using low sulphur diesel.
Hope the above helps, but if you have any questions I will try to assist.
Web Link >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_590

Regards,
Kev
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hello Kev

Thanks for the very comprehensive answer it certainly looks as if the fuel could be the major contributor to the rattle problem. Other issues which appear to effect the rattle are of course load and, I am not sure about this, the ambient temperature, I certainly notice it more in the hot weather. It could be because I have the windows open but in fact I am so attuned to the noise now I can hear it quite plainly in the cab with the windows shut.

Whether or not it is doing any damage is , as you say, hard to tell. Of course we don't actually know what is rattling! She has now done about 163,000 miles without any signs of distress she does not use oil or water. What I think would be interesting, is to hear from other people with the same engine if they have experienced this rattle and if so, has the diesel been bought in France/Europe. It would also be interesting to hear from other high milers if they have not experienced the problem especialy in France?

The engine is the 2.2 CTDI 2006

Regards
Adrian
 
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