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Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone.
First off, this website and forum is a great resource and I look forward to learning a lot.

Here's my problem/question(s):

I am considering purchasing a 1998 CRV-EX with less than 100,000 miles on it. I'm serious enough that I took it in to a mechanic for an inspection. The vehicle drives really well and is in excellent condition (interior, sheet metal) I have searched the forum and found information on the P1362 code that the engine was throwing, but need some help with these problems:

1. Spark plugs were seized. He used an 18" breaker bar and the strongest guy in the shop but they didn't budge! QUESTION: can they be unseized with Liquid Wrench or some other type of solvent that is put around the plugs or in the gas?
2. Code 73 "Internal Failure of SRS Unit". This was off a professional series scanner but not a HONDA HDS.
3. Code 92 "Faulty SRS Power Supply VB line"

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays...
Thanks for your help.
 

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Hi everyone.
First off, this website and forum is a great resource and I look forward to learning a lot.

Here's my problem/question(s):

I am considering purchasing a 1998 CRV-EX with less than 100,000 miles on it. I'm serious enough that I took it in to a mechanic for an inspection. The vehicle drives really well and is in excellent condition (interior, sheet metal) I have searched the forum and found information on the P1362 code that the engine was throwing, but need some help with these problems:

1. Spark plugs were seized. He used an 18" breaker bar and the strongest guy in the shop but they didn't budge! QUESTION: can they be unseized with Liquid Wrench or some other type of solvent that is put around the plugs or in the gas?
2. Code 73 "Internal Failure of SRS Unit". This was off a professional series scanner but not a HONDA HDS.
3. Code 92 "Faulty SRS Power Supply VB line"

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays...
Thanks for your help.

Welcome to the CRVoc. Unless the price is really good i would just walk away. Srs problems can be expensive. And plugs seized into the head tell me they have never even been removed to be checked. A stripped or broken plug can and most likely will involve removing the head and having it sent out to a machine shop to have a heli coil installed.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Follow-up

Welcome to the CRVoc. Unless the price is really good i would just walk away. Srs problems can be expensive. And plugs seized into the head tell me they have never even been removed to be checked. A stripped or broken plug can and most likely will involve removing the head and having it sent out to a machine shop to have a heli coil installed.
Thanks for the quick reply lizzurd.
Someone mentioned to me that, regarding the SRS codes, it might be worth doing a manual reset by jumping the contacts in the MES connector. What do you think?
 

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Thanks for the quick reply lizzurd.
Someone mentioned to me that, regarding the SRS codes, it might be worth doing a manual reset by jumping the contacts in the MES connector. What do you think?
Normally once a vehicle is diagnosed with an internal failure of the SRS unit a reset may work for a few days . It can't hurt to try. Keep in mind if you need to replace the SRS unit it is close to $500 at the dealer. Or $435 if you get it online. You may be able to use that as a bargaining tool.

http://www.hondapartsdeals.com/hpa_parts_list.php?vin=&Label[ProductID]=CR-V&Label[YearID]=1998&Label[DoorID]=5&Label[GradeID]=EX&Label[AreaID]=KA&Label[TransmissionID]=4AT&Label[SectionID]=ELECTRICAL+/+EXHAUST+/+HEATER+/+FUEL&Label[IllustrationGroupID]=SRS+UNIT&ProductID=7&YearID=16&DoorID=3&GradeID=8&AreaID=2&TransmissionID=5&SectionID=5&IllustrationGroupID=2318
 

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Get the seller to correct the problems and then deal from there. The stuck plugs are the a concern and what else has been neglected. To loosen the plugs, you might try spraying with Wd40 when the engine is hot concentrating the spray on the plug - may take a couple of tries or more - if the plug loosens slightly a couple more tries might do it - if not you are screwed. A impact wrench might take them out but probably damage the thread. Is the vehicle lady driven? - they sometimes forget maintenance unless they can provide a service record not worth checking.
 

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99% of the time siezed plugs in aluminum heads will rip the thread out of the head when removed. That is why when replacing the plugs you should always put a little anti sieze compound on the threads of the plug before installing. My guess, they were replaced dry. Things to try, PB blaster, liquid wrench ect. Soak them down pretty good, when the engine is up to temp, let cool, do it again, get it hot (by hot I mean operating temp) and try to remove them. Try tightening slightly, and I mean slightly. Then loosen, if they break loose and get hard to turn again, spray and retighten, then back them out. You will save threads working them back and forth. Good luck with it, I would walk away, but it is a good thing you checked. Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for all the advice.
I did end up buying it for a good price.
The SRS codes cleared with an MES reset (paper clip method).
I feel fortunate that it came with all service records and I see that it had new plugs (NGKs) installed by a Honda dealer at about 96,000km. I think that I'll leave them alone until (and if) they result in a problem or code.

I do have a P1362 code that I know is a TDC sensor problem that may require distributor replacement. I'm waiting for it to warm up (from -40C) to test the resistance at pins 2 and 9 of the connector.
My question is: Is it ok to drive the vehicle until I can get a new distributor or will I be damaging the engine in some way?
I am way up in northern Canada so parts can take a while to arrive. :(
Thanks.
 

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Not removing the plugs might be OK for now. Eventually you will have to remove them. To check compression or change the plugs for example.

About damaged spark plug threads, HeliCoils are the best fix on an aluminum head if the threads are damaged. Unfortunately that is best done with the head removed. Breaking the tang off the Helicoil will result the tang ending up in the cylinder pounding the head badly until it exhaust thru the exhaust valve. :eek:

However as an alternative method, KD tools sells an alloy steel tang less insert. To put it in you can use the special tap that comes in the kit. Use grease on the tap threads to catch any aluminum bits and pieces while re-tapping the oversize threads. Then you need to clean the threads spotless and use High Temp Stud & bearing Locktite to fix the insert on the head.

I used the second approach without removing the heads on a '66 Corvair. It was successful and saved me a lot of work. One word of caution with the KD insert is that it changes the position on the plug slightly. Thereby slightly changing how hot the plug ran. It is only about .040-.060” It was a tossup whether to or not to switch to the next hotter plug. I do not remember if I ever did. I do not remember it being much of a problem.

Bottom line is the KD insert does work without removing the head.

The longer you wait the more difficult it will be to remove the plugs. If I were you I would keep spraying Super Penetrating fluid in the plug thread area every few days.After a while it might loosen up slightly. Keep spraying the penetrating fluid. It is extremely important to at this point if the plug does not come out easy to alternately tighten and loosen the plug 1/2ccw-1/4cw-1/2ccw… and so on. This way you might save the threads. As it loosens up more you can try removing it the normal way. If it does not keep spraying and alternately turning ccw-cw-ccw… never losing your patience. If you force it out with a breaker bar you will damage the threads!

The only caveat is if plugs were installed with threads that were too long or longer than the threads in the head. In that case the deposit buildup on the plug threads could possibly damage the threads on the head as you try to remove the plug even alternately tightening and loosening. It all depends on what is harder. The aluminum or the deposits. :confused:

Finally just because the records indicate the plugs were changed at 96km does not 100% of the time indicate they were in fact replaced? Some times due to miscommunication or even intentionally routine maintenance parts do to not get replaced.

Choose wisely

-RG
 

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KD insert

The insert might be about $5 for a pair . Where they get you is for the tap. The kit 30 years ago was about $19 I think.

I have the tap. I think I used all the inserts. I can check for the tap P/N if anyone is interested. Who knows what the insert P/N is.

The fact that the plugs are in a tube was never discussed. At least in the Gen 3 it is. Not overwhelming but it might make it a little more complicated.

-RG
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Thanks Radar24 for the useful information regarding the plugs.
I do plan to use some penetrating oil (I've heard 50/50 ATF & Acetone is the best penetrating fluid) to help loosen the plugs.
The torque to install is 13 ft pounds according to the Honda Helm.
Any guesses on what would be a "safe" maximum removal torque?
Thanks.
 

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Penetrating fluids and removal torque

Not on a Honda and being brain dead at the time, I torqued a plug to the STD value for some steel heads (17-19 ft-lbs). It started to tear up the threads until DUUUH! I noticed it was aluminum!

I do not know but it will have to be considerably more than 13 ft-lbs. A 3/8" butterfly type impact wrench calibrated to say 15 ft lbs for starters will provide peak impacts that may break the bond. You can calibrate the 3/8" butterfly impact wrench by tightening a 7/16, ½” or even 9/16” fine tread bolts using your torque wrench (to simulate the sparkplug threads as close as possible, on a junk steel head would be best using a sparkplug). Then slowly increase the adjustment screw on the butterfly CCW (lefty loosy) until the bolt is removed at 15 ft-lbs.

Try the impact for a few seconds at a time. Several times. Once it becomes obvious the plug will not come out at 15 ft-lbs, recalibrate at 16 or 17 ft-lbs and repeat. At this point I would wait and do a few more cycles of penetrating fluid and butterfly impacts and see what happens over time before increasing any further. You need to decide if you want to continue increasing or not. I probably would not go over 17 ft-lbs until I had a fix as a backup in the event I damaged the threads. A method that does not require removing the head!

Just a thought. No point in fixing something that ain't broke (don’t pushing it too far). I have no experience so I am kind of winging it; if the Honda sparkplug head threads are deep (about 3/4" or 19mm deep) it might be able to take more torque while if shorter (3/8" or 10mm deep) they might not much more than 19ft-lbs before you start striping them. Look at one of the plugs that comes out too get an idea of how deep the treads are. If the treads on the plug are deeper there will be a mark of combustion deposits telling you how deep the head threads are.

Using acetone and ATF mixed has the problem of a low ignition temp. Certainly the acetone does by itself. It is also very volatile and you will end up with just the ATF before long. Anywhere near the exhaust system and you could be reaching for the fire extinguisher.

A number of penetrating fluids are available. I like Gunk Super Penetrating fluid (cheap) and PB Blaster (cost almost twice as much). The later has the advantage of being slightly thicker so it seems to stick and stay put better to the surfaces. It relies on capillary action and possibly has slight climbing properties. That is it can crawl up vertical surfaces. Some lubricant can do that. I'm not certain about PB Blaster climbing (I thought I saw it do that) but it is thicker than the Gunk. BP Blaster might work better in some situations.

http://www.gunk.com/CAT_L106.asp

https://www.expeditionexchange.com/blaster/

Here is an interesting warning:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/33279-pb-blaster-penetrating-oil-warning.html

Patience!

-RG

 

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Discussion Starter #13
Radar24 (RG) thank you very much for your very detailed and useful response.
I will be trying that gentle torque technique when it warms up - possibly this weekend.
Thanks again.
 

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I forgot to mention that a 1/2" impact wrench commonly used on a lug nut cannot be adjusted as accurately. Even if it has an adjustable torque screw as it is too crude. If you do use a 1/2" you might just make your job very short by just stripping it right away. ZiiiiiiiiP!

OOPS! S^&*, F#$%!

A good excuse to get a 3/8 butterfly impact; Home Depot had one for about $47 but I could not find it on line.

I suppose that a cordless impact might work but you might not be able to accurately adjust the torque.

-RG
 
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