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Discussion Starter #1
Vehicle is my fiance's 2009 CR-V EX-L AWD w/nav and about 160-170k on the odo (mostly all highway for the last 80-100k).

Current issue: Strong vibration at highway speeds, felt heavily in wheel but also elsewhere. Vibration occurs during braking, but does not occur if only parking brake is applied. Seems to be ever so slightly worse when turning and braking at the same time, but not sure if that's in my head. More pressure on the pedal produces more violent vibration.

We've replaced the following items in the last 3-6 months (definitely not all related to this vibration issue):

Rear:
- new pad (done by myself when I discovered Firestone didn't do it)
- new rotors (done by myself when I discovered Firestone didn't do it)
- new OEM caliper pins/boots/grease (done by myself when I discovered Firestone didn't do it)
- new OEM misc hardware for the calipers (done by myself when I discovered Firestone didn't do it)
- new tires mounted/balanced (done by Firestone)
- rear end alignment (done by local Shell)

Front:
- new pads (done by Firestone)
- turned rotors (done by Firestone)
- new tires mounted/balanced (done by Firestone)
- front end alignment (done by local Shell)

So the last new parts on the vehicle were the tires, ordered from Tirerack and mounted/balanced at Firestone. The tires needed to go regardless, because the old ones were dry-rotted. But she was having vibrations at highway speeds, so I was thinking maybe they were also out of balance. It turns out this made only minimal difference, and now the vibration is simply only noticeable when braking, whereas previously there was some vibration at highway speeds all the time. BTW I didn't just blindly assume it was tires; I obviously did some diagnostics first. But to put things into perspective, we had literally just had the front rotors turned maybe 2-3 weeks prior to this point, so warped rotors was the LAST thing I was thinking it could be. I still haven't gauged them or had anyone look at the rotors yet, but I did run my fingers across the surface and do a visual inspection of thickness.

Due to all the recent brake work that's been done and a still persistent vibration, I've been wondering if this is suspension and/or steering related. I'd suspected this before, so we had the alignment done but I asked my fiance to ask the shop (Shell) to inspect the ball joints and bushings prior to doing the alignment. First of all, they laughed at her, which pissed me off. But besides that they claimed everything was fine with the ball joints and bushings and just did the alignment.

I got a chance to get under the car today, and I don't know if I would say everything is "fine" per se. I didn't feel any play at 12 & 6 or 3 & 9, though there might have been a little click with the crowbar under the tire (hard to say cause I was prying against a crappy Baltimore street). I took the wheel off, and inspected the ball joints, a few bushings, tie rods, stabilizer link, etc.
Most of the boots are cracked to some degree, which I know isn't necessarily urgent. But the front driver lower ball joint looks a bit distorted/twisted. It's also very easy to rotate the tie rods, though their boots again just show some typical cracking. I only did a visual on the passenger side with car on ground, but it looked about the same, except for a wet/greasy/oily boot around the inside tie rod (is that even a big deal?).

I posted a few videos and photos to Flickr. They're a little slow to upload, but most are there as of this posting. Sorry for the heavy breathing. It's a sensitive mic. I swear I'm not THAT fat! :D

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmzPV69B

So does this seem like it could be steering and/or suspension related? Could there be something else causing this vibration at high speed when braking? I googled hard, and couldn't come up with much besides warped rotor info. Am I crazy for thinking it's something besides the rotors? The fronts are so damn expensive, otherwise I'd just replace them and call it a day. Could binding caliper pins or seizing caliper cylinders cause this kind of vibration by chance? Haven't seen any indication of excess heat or dragging of pads though...
 

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You have done some good troubleshooting. To confirm: Happens under braking ONLY, or also when cruising?


Did ANY of the work change the symptoms a little bit? Did the issues go away then come back?



Could you have a bent front wheel (or multiple bent wheels). Have you had them measured for run out? Did the Firestone do a regular balance, or Road-Force balance (preferred)?

I would check the run-out of the rotors though. If there is dirt at the rotor/hub interface they could be out of true. (On the '06 the spec is 0.004" but I could feel a pulsation with less)

If the pads they used were 'cheap' you could be the victim of Pad Redeposits.
https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedia/bd69395a-b65c-481d-93f7-b26b1bd0638d/Centric_and_APC_Technical_Whitepaper_B1-Warped-Brake-Disc-8-2018_1.pdf
 

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Yes you need to check run out -harbour freight sells an inexpensive clamp on dial indicator that works ok-just clamp to suspension with dial against rotor/hub or whatever you are checking and slowly rotate by hand, also I had a front brake caliper that was slightly dragging and causing similar problems-found it just by checking relative temperatures between 2 front brake rotors after short drive
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yes you need to check run out -harbour freight sells an inexpensive clamp on dial indicator that works ok-just clamp to suspension with dial against rotor/hub or whatever you are checking and slowly rotate by hand, also I had a front brake caliper that was slightly dragging and causing similar problems-found it just by checking relative temperatures between 2 front brake rotors after short drive
So there's really nothing else this could be? Should i be pissed about paying for turned rotors? Do you think they didn't actually turn them?

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You should be able to see visually if the rotors have been turned. The surface should look very uniform and even and not shiny if you haven't driven far with them since turning.
I recently found out I had a separated tire on my Accord. Not a bad vibration but enough so that on what I knew was a smooth road I could feel it. Being as it was on the back it didn't effect steering or braking.
You might double check the tires for out of roundness. It happens.
 

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You might double check the tires for out of roundness. It happens.
True.

A good road force balancer can identify either wheel or tire as being out-of-round. The tire could then be re-oriented to minimize the situation...then the RF balancing will help too.

https://www.hunter.com/wheel-balancers/road-force-elite

Regards turned rotors: As I said, you could have a perfectly true rotor off-car, but a bit of grit between the rotor & hub can cause it to be 'un-true'.

Our favorite Honda specialty shop uses a lathing machine that does it right on the car!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
You should be able to see visually if the rotors have been turned. The surface should look very uniform and even and not shiny if you haven't driven far with them since turning.
I recently found out I had a separated tire on my Accord. Not a bad vibration but enough so that on what I knew was a smooth road I could feel it. Being as it was on the back it didn't effect steering or braking.
You might double check the tires for out of roundness. It happens.
Problem is my fiance drives 97 miles a day for work, so chances are it's far too late to check the rotors.

As far as tires being out of round, can that happen on brand new tires? These are 4 brand new Goodyear Assurance Weatherready SL which were delivered to Firestone on 2/4/19 and mounted/balanced either same day or within a day or two of that date. She works from home at least 1 day a week, so that means they got about 7x4x97=2716 miles >> say 3k miles on them. I got her car today (she's got my 5.7 WK2 :( ). It seems to be shaking even in the 30-40mph range now a little.

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Discussion Starter #8
True.

A good road force balancer can identify either wheel or tire as being out-of-round. The tire could then be re-oriented to minimize the situation...then the RF balancing will help too.

https://www.hunter.com/wheel-balancers/road-force-elite

Regards turned rotors: As I said, you could have a perfectly true rotor off-car, but a bit of grit between the rotor & hub can cause it to be 'un-true'.

Our favorite Honda specialty shop uses a lathing machine that does it right on the car!
Tirerack lists this Firestone as having a road force balancer. I just assumed it was their only balancer. Should I have confirmed?

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Discussion Starter #9
True.

A good road force balancer can identify either wheel or tire as being out-of-round. The tire could then be re-oriented to minimize the situation...then the RF balancing will help too.

https://www.hunter.com/wheel-balancers/road-force-elite

Regards turned rotors: As I said, you could have a perfectly true rotor off-car, but a bit of grit between the rotor & hub can cause it to be 'un-true'.

Our favorite Honda specialty shop uses a lathing machine that does it right on the car!
I guess i should have taken a look at the screws holding the rotors on for evidence of recent tooling marks. That might at least confirm whether they were turned on car or off (or not at all).

Though if you all really think it's just rotors, I'll just replace the damn rotors and be done with it. Just don't want to throw money at this thing, especially after having just paid to turn them.

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Don't 'shotgun' the issue with more parts. Have the car checked out using the suggestions above.



I would think that the Firestone would stand by their work (and parts) when you visit if you are getting vibrations. Call them now and set up an appointment.




PS: I've had tire store monkeys not road-force balance tires correctly. :Darn: They are always under time pressure...
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Don't 'shotgun' the issue with more parts. Have the car checked out using the suggestions above.



I would think that the Firestone would stand by their work (and parts) when you visit if you are getting vibrations. Call them now and set up an appointment.




PS: I've had tire store monkeys not road-force balance tires correctly. :Darn: They are always under time pressure...
You would think... That's the key part. As the saying going, if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself... Especially when you live in a ****hole city full of lazy people. I may have added on that last part, but it's from a plethora of personal experience.

While what you say still may be true, i am concerned that there's simply no way to prove that they didn't do the work, so they can just make to whatever excuse they please... Especially considering how many miles have been put on it since turning the rotors.

But maybe that is still the best option. They have done a lot of the work that they could use as an alternative "excuse" anyway, so either way it falls on them.

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Ok read the OP and found whats missing:

Turning rotors, don't ever do that on modern vehicle rotors. They warp in days

If they didn't hand torque the wheels with a. Torque wrench, torque is unbalanced which cam cause a warp issue

Check the caliper slides to see if there is fresh grease in them. Best to take apart and see if they we're cleaned and lubed correctly.

Big cause of that shake can very easily be because of turning the rotors and use of cheap brake pads. It can be caused by the pads not having bedded the rotors evenly so braking power increases and decreases (loss of friction ) all on it's own.

Since you have some decent skills to do brakes yourself, I would go through them and take pictures/receipts. Do not buy any further parts until you can eliminate the rotors as the cause as that is the only parts that will need replaced. Rest can be cleaned and lubricated.



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Discussion Starter #14
Ok read the OP and found whats missing:

Turning rotors, don't ever do that on modern vehicle rotors. They warp in days

If they didn't hand torque the wheels with a. Torque wrench, torque is unbalanced which cam cause a warp issue

Check the caliper slides to see if there is fresh grease in them. Best to take apart and see if they we're cleaned and lubed correctly.

Big cause of that shake can very easily be because of turning the rotors and use of cheap brake pads. It can be caused by the pads not having bedded the rotors evenly so braking power increases and decreases (loss of friction ) all on it's own.

Since you have some decent skills to do brakes yourself, I would go through them and take pictures/receipts. Do not buy any further parts until you can eliminate the rotors as the cause as that is the only parts that will need replaced. Rest can be cleaned and lubricated.



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OEM rotors can't even be turned? I'm not positive these are OEM, just assuming.

Are you talking about torquing the lug nuts? Nobody in their right mind would ever follow torque specs on lug nuts. Show me a shop that does that and I'll show you a liar lol.

Regarding the pins, pads, and bedding... Who the hell knows. That's part of the issue in the "long story" i skipped over in the OP. I'm a former Honda owner myself of 10 years (03 Accord 6-spd V6), so I'm fairly well versed in common Honda issues especially of this era. I know these pins bind and need regular greasing. I had lots of issues with it on my accord, to the point of having to completely replace rear brakes (everything!) TWICE due to heat damage. So i don't mess around with them anymore. When she complained about her brakes and i test drove it, it was clear they were sticking a little. So my first order of business was to replace all pins, boots, and other misc hardware with brand new Honda genuine parts. It's dirt cheap to do so and it works since it's OE. Pads i typically just use whatever high end ceramic is offered at the car store.

Unfortunately I'm working about 80 hours a week right now. We're also planning a wedding out of state, and as such have a number of events scheduled. I'm additionally a landlord for what was previously my house down the street but is now a rental property. So needless to say, time is in short supply. That's the sole reason i even went to Firestone for the brakes in the first place. I mean, it's also a pain not having a place to work on the car (especially not having shelter), but I've torn the top end off my accord's J30 on Baltimore City streets before. You do what you gotta do.

So i told Firestone explicitly that the pins are binding and that i want them replaced and to replace the pads too if need be. I said i wanted it done on all 4. They called and insisted the pins were fine and said they just did the brakes. I argued briefly that the pins were not fine, but i was running late to my grandma's funeral so i couldn't continue and just said fine.

Probably not even 2 weeks later my fiance started having brake issues again, so i looked at them and realized that Firestone didn't even touch the rear brakes at all. They were so ungodly rusted, delaminated rust everywhere... Hadn't seen a tool in years. They were locking up very bad and the calipers had totally wrecked the rotors. So i spent one wonderfully cold windy and rainy weekend outside replacing the pins & boots, pads, rotors, and other misc hardware on the rear brakes since Firestone lied about doing the work. For the record, we were not charged for the rear brakes.

I had intended on changing out the pins in the front too and still have the parts for it, but time is a bitch and so is working on the side of the road. Looks like i might be doing that again soon though.

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Ok read the OP and found whats missing:

Turning rotors, don't ever do that on modern vehicle rotors. They warp in days

If they didn't hand torque the wheels with a. Torque wrench, torque is unbalanced which cam cause a warp issue

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Bull.

Rotors can be turned. You don’t know the feeds and speeds. You can’t say it will warp.

Wheel bolt torque stretches the stud, and deforms the stud hole crown. It doesn’t warp the wheel.
.
 

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One thing tigriss99 alluded to that I agree with, is the possibility of varying coefficient of friction can cause brake pedal pulsation. If you ever overheated the rotors, you will likely have areas of the rotor with changed temper, which gives a different COF in each segment of the rotor’s rotation which causes varying friction and resulting vibrations. Even after turning them physically true, the non homogeneous iron hardness will still give pedal vibrations.
 

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If the hub face and rotor, or rotor face aren't clean and free of rust, this could cause excessive run out. Before you go any further, I would take the wheel and rotor back off and make sure its all clean, then remount everything. Pay particular attention to the lip on the hub that the rotor and wheel sit on.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
This isn't something that had ever previously occurred to me about Honda's and their stupid rotor screw design, but it does make sense.

Though to be completely honest, for me to go through that much effort with the very limited time and resources available, I find it almost illogical to not just replace the rotors while I'm there "just in case". I would already have everything torn apart, and I'd definitely be putting in the new Honda pins/boots/grease and other hardware while I'm at it since i already have all the parts in the basement. It's just a matter of buying rotors. I knew it goes against the unwritten rules, but I'm playing a different game this time. When i was younger i had time but no money, so i worked on my cars because i had no choice. Now i have some money but i have no time, and I'm still working on my cars cause I can't seem to find a competent mechanic around here. Not trying to be a prick or anything, I'm just saying if it comes down to me having to work on her brakes again...I can't afford to dedicate any more time to it. I just need to have it done for once and for all.

So i may still attempt taking it back to Firestone to see what they say. I'm discussing it will a buddy of mine who is, ironically, big into hooking up CR-Vs and knows the cars and all cars very well. If we do that, it'll probably be Friday when the fiancee works at home. If not, I'm probably just gonna pick up some local parts and change out everything in the front this weekend.

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This all could also be the issue with transmission oil... I had a similar issue, turned out I wasn't using the synthetic transmission oil Honda recommends.
It is my experience that a Honda CRV that has had the transmission oil replaced with a non synthetic will experience some very strange mechanical issues.
So, do you know what type oil is in that gear Box?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
This all could also be the issue with transmission oil... I had a similar issue, turned out I wasn't using the synthetic transmission oil Honda recommends.
It is my experience that a Honda CRV that has had the transmission oil replaced with a non synthetic will experience some very strange mechanical issues.
So, do you know what type oil is in that gear Box?
I'm certain this has nothing to do with the transmission. It does it in neutral too. Plus, for it to be transmission related, it would almost certainly be present without applying the brake or it would at least present itself at lower speeds.

Unrelated, but i noticed this morning after taking her car to work again (2.5 miles) that the left rear rotor was kinda of rough, so i went to feel it and it was very hot though not hot enough to sizzle my spit (that's how i always checked my accord). I'm pretty pissed since i just redid these damn rear brakes, including slides, boots, OE grease and all. Cleaned out the slide holes real well too. So only thing i can think of is the cylinder is seizing. I put a little grease around the cylinder boot too to help protect and lubricate, so this exact thing doesn't occur. Guess that was pointless. BTW I don't think this is related to the shaking whatsoever since i can't replicate the shaking with the parking brake alone. Just another thing on the list.

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