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Discussion Starter #21
heh.. yeah.... 40 years has moved design, features, and capabilities orders of magnitude forward in terms of Civic design. (y) (y)

1979 Civic (Japan market version too, with extra features):


2020 Civic:


Order of magnitude difference in price too.. but that is true for even things like a carton of milk too. :p

Personally, I will take the 2020 over the 1979.. any day. :)
I'll take the 2020 as well. Considering Honda was a manufacturer of motorcycles, they earned a good reputation as a car manufacturer soon after. I wonder how many, if any, 1979 Civics are still on the road?
 

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Why? Because engineers are not happy unless they can tinker with everything, and even change things that don't need to. Case in point . . . the dipstick. I worked with engineers, and believe me, some can be a real pain in the behind. They tweek and fuss with the most minute things.
I too have worked with engineers that could not leave well enough alone..................
 

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Discussion Starter #24
I too have worked with engineers that could not leave well enough alone..................
I'm glad someone knows where I'm coming from. Some, not all, but some engineers can be a royal pain. Case in point: I worked in electronic design, mostly printed circuit board design. After months of work in R&D, we finally get a product that works as it should, and along comes a tweaking geek to make a few changes . . . "NOT AGAIN!" After making all the changes to the schematic drawings, circuit board layout, all of which are labor intensive, the circuit board layouts, which were hand done before computers took over the work, go out for 1 to 1 films, then after the films are checked for track violations, off they go for new circuit boards, then components are added, then the boards and product components go for final assembly and testing. Outcome: the product ends up with flaws. So back to the original design. All of which adds to the overall cost to the consumer. Definition of an engineer, "an individual that has reached his highest level of incompetence." Did I mention that their handwriting is at par with a doctor's 🙄😁. Honestly, I loved my work very much, but I just wish I could get back the hair I lost along the way from job related stress.😁
 

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Oh my, you may have offended some forum members that are engineers. :( Think about what you said.
 

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I'm glad someone knows where I'm coming from. Some, not all, but some engineers can be a royal pain. Case in point: I worked in electronic design, mostly printed circuit board design. After months of work in R&D, we finally get a product that works as it should, and along comes a tweaking geek to make a few changes . . . "NOT AGAIN!" After making all the changes to the schematic drawings, circuit board layout, all of which are labor intensive, the circuit board layouts, which were hand done before computers took over the work, go out for 1 to 1 films, then after the films are checked for track violations, off they go for new circuit boards, then components are added, then the boards and product components go for final assembly and testing. Outcome: the product ends up with flaws. So back to the original design. All of which adds to the overall cost to the consumer. Definition of an engineer, "an individual that has reached his highest level of incompetence." Did I mention that their handwriting is at par with a doctor's 🙄😁. Honestly, I loved my work very much, but I just wish I could get back the hair I lost along the way from job related stress.😁
/sigh... you are like a dog with a bone on this. :)

As someone who was an Electrical Engineer, later an Engineering Manager, later a Project Manaer, and later an Engineering Director... I feel the need to inform you a bit about the "why" in the context of your complaint.

While as is true in every profession, you may come across some EEs who tinker for the sake of tinkering.... most of them do not last long in the profession. Reason: they do not get good performance evaluations, and move on.. by choice or are shown the door.

FACT: EEs work from specifications provided to them for an end design. They design to those specs, and the results of design pass down to other teams (like PCB board design).

FACT: Changes in design are a fact of life in electronics. Period, full stop. Most EEs are loathe to make changes to their finished designs. Reason.. it is a lot of additional work, interupts in process design efforts (again.. like PCB design) and generally slows down project completion.

FACT: most changes EEs make to designs are one of two in nature: 1) a design that tested as fine in prototype actually shows problems when moved into production. And as such.... changes to effect remedy are required. 2) Marketing or Sales makes changes to requirements AFTER design is completed. And as such... design teams are required to run a speed drill to incorporated the changes and roll them forward to release for production. Good Electrical Engineers actually work hard to get designs right the first time, because it is a royal pain to make hardware changes later on.

FACT: the real "tinker-bells" (which is what we called chronic tinkerers in the field of product design) are marketing and sales... with complicity from senior management. Where such "tinker-bells" go rogue and free roam in the engineering field is largely on the software side of things.... NOT hardware design. Reason: software engineers live in a culture where all of their changes are "soft" in nature and therefore they feel less compulsion to get @#$% right the first time. Software Engineers are the consumate tinker-bells in the engineering space.

The "tinkering" you are complaining about here.. is not from engineering... it is coming from marketing, sales, product safety, product human interface specialists, etc. In other words... people who simply don't understand or don't care about the cost of change vs the return on product value to the consumer. Much of this falls into the broad category of "continuous improvement" programs and response to competitors moves.

Happily, in my career, the support teams like PCB designers were outstanding, and understood the nature of change in product development and that as a team.. we are working together to make a great product. It was routine for me to sit down with the PCB designer as they were designing and helping them with tough layout tasks by actually in some cases changing design or spec to help them out of a difficult layout task. ;) We also celebrated and partied together when we completed a project... to blow off the stress and steam from an intense schedule.
 

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For me the only challenge is you need a clean dipstick to reinsert to check level. The orange plastic is harder to clean dry of oil than an old style metal only stick. All I did is switch to a microfiber towel... which does the trick.

Once the stick is clean, insert, remove, and check oil level and in any normal light, even with fresh oil, you can see where the orange is wet and where it is not.

As for designers constantly tinkering with or changing designs, that is common across the industry. I believe the reason Honda has moved to this style stick in their new generation vehicles is because they are using very low viscosity oils now days, and a plain metal dipstick is not as effective at holding oil as those with additional attachments. The design is common world wide right now for Honda, and Honda DOES use even lower viscosity oil in some markets, such as Japan. Other than the stick being unfamiliar to owners historically, it does actually do a better job of holding the thin oil in place on the stick. Enough so to warrant a design change... not in my view.. but I'm not Honda. Heh... you could do worse of course..... look at this BMW stick (before BMW removed sticks completely, and changed to an electronic sensor and readout) o_O

I actually have one of each of the dipsticks in question sitting side by side in my garage.
The Orange Monster in my 2017 Honda CRV EXL and the slender black one in my 2003 BMW 330 Convertible.
The BMW dipstick is way easier to read than the Orange Monster.
I have had my CRV for over 3 years and by using the proper lights I can sort of read it by changing viewing angles.
I have had the E46 for over 9 years and have never had any problem reading it. During that time the dealer oil changes have gone from 5W40 to 0W30 so I don't think viscosity has much to do with it.
 

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Like I said way back in post #4.......check frequently, and as the oil somewhat quickly darkens, it becomes easier to read/see on the orange monster.👍
 

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I actually have one of each of the dipsticks in question sitting side by side in my garage.
The Orange Monster in my 2017 Honda CRV EXL and the slender black one in my 2003 BMW 330 Convertible.
The BMW dipstick is way easier to read than the Orange Monster.
I have had my CRV for over 3 years and by using the proper lights I can sort of read it by changing viewing angles.
I have had the E46 for over 9 years and have never had any problem reading it. During that time the dealer oil changes have gone from 5W40 to 0W30 so I don't think viscosity has much to do with it.
BMW solved the problem--no more dipsticks. 'Had a 430i, just wait for the message board to tell you you have low oil.............:unsure:
 

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BMW solved the problem--no more dipsticks. 'Had a 430i, just wait for the message board to tell you you have low oil.............:unsure:
Yep! BMW took away dipsticks in 2006. BMW started using Direct Injection in 2007.
People accuse German auto manufacturers of Over Engineering. This is just good engineering because if people don't know that they have Oil Dilution they won't complain about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
/sigh... you are like a dog with a bone on this. :)

As someone who was an Electrical Engineer, later an Engineering Manager, later a Project Manaer, and later an Engineering Director... I feel the need to inform you a bit about the "why" in the context of your complaint.

While as is true in every profession, you may come across some EEs who tinker for the sake of tinkering.... most of them do not last long in the profession. Reason: they do not get good performance evaluations, and move on.. by choice or are shown the door.

FACT: EEs work from specifications provided to them for an end design. They design to those specs, and the results of design pass down to other teams (like PCB board design).

FACT: Changes in design are a fact of life in electronics. Period, full stop. Most EEs are loathe to make changes to their finished designs. Reason.. it is a lot of additional work, interupts in process design efforts (again.. like PCB design) and generally slows down project completion.

FACT: most changes EEs make to designs are one of two in nature: 1) a design that tested as fine in prototype actually shows problems when moved into production. And as such.... changes to effect remedy are required. 2) Marketing or Sales makes changes to requirements AFTER design is completed. And as such... design teams are required to run a speed drill to incorporated the changes and roll them forward to release for production. Good Electrical Engineers actually work hard to get designs right the first time, because it is a royal pain to make hardware changes later on.

FACT: the real "tinker-bells" (which is what we called chronic tinkerers in the field of product design) are marketing and sales... with complicity from senior management. Where such "tinker-bells" go rogue and free roam in the engineering field is largely on the software side of things.... NOT hardware design. Reason: software engineers live in a culture where all of their changes are "soft" in nature and therefore they feel less compulsion to get @#$% right the first time. Software Engineers are the consumate tinker-bells in the engineering space.

The "tinkering" you are complaining about here.. is not from engineering... it is coming from marketing, sales, product safety, product human interface specialists, etc. In other words... people who simply don't understand or don't care about the cost of change vs the return on product value to the consumer. Much of this falls into the broad category of "continuous improvement" programs and response to competitors moves.

Happily, in my career, the support teams like PCB designers were outstanding, and understood the nature of change in product development and that as a team.. we are working together to make a great product. It was routine for me to sit down with the PCB designer as they were designing and helping them with tough layout tasks by actually in some cases changing design or spec to help them out of a difficult layout task. ;) We also celebrated and partied together when we completed a project... to blow off the stress and steam from an intense schedule.
I understand all that you said. If I may just point out to what I originally mentioned, "some, not all." I have worked for amazing engineers in the past that were totally on the ball, and I have worked with a few that made life very hard for everyone. Constantly changing things, over and over again. These individuals didn't last long. Just like in all areas of manufacturing, there are some that were good at their jibs, and others that were not. Those that weren't, went down the road. I have worked side by side with some engineers that were a pleasure to work with. Very helpful and understanding and would give those of us in design a lot of leeway. I agree that changes are part of the industry, but when changes are made that creates issues to the end product, and that does happen, creates a lot of tension and animosity among the staff. It's counterproductive. The case that I mentioned ended up in the dismissal of that engineer. It cost the company big-time. It's been many years since I was in industry, and I miss it very much. There were weekends where I couldn't wait for Monday morning. I just loved designing circuit boards. It's very gratifying when you spend so much time in your design, and the end product comes out without an issue. Years ago, a company I worked for, pioneered surface mount technology where components were mounted front and back. It was a challenge to design boards as such, especially when you are laying them out manually using tape and pads. I recall a design that was very complex, and considering it was laid out by hand, the finished board came out with no issues at all. When I left the company, I was allowed to keep one of the prototype boards which I still have. I was extremely proud of what I did.

I can only imagine how things have changed over the years with the advent of computers. Still, I prefer the older way, manual skills that took a long time to master. There's just something very gratifying when creating drawings that way. Yes, I would love to go back to those days. A great part of my life!!
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Oh my, you may have offended some forum members that are engineers. :( Think about what you said.
Yes, that was a bit callus of me, and I apologize. Sometimes the horrors of our past come to life. I should have mentioned that bad engineers are in the minority, as I pointed out to an engineer that replied. In all lines of work, you have those that are good and bad at what they do. The particular engineer from the example I pointed out was let go. He created a nightmare with the project in question.
 

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my 17 Porsche Carrera doesnt even have a dipstik,,you have to scroll thru the computer to check it....oil has to be at certain temp and motor off
 

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Discussion Starter #34
my 17 Porsche Carrera doesnt even have a dipstik,,you have to scroll thru the computer to check it....oil has to be at certain temp and motor off
That sounds awesome. Checking it that was will give the level? Too bad all car manufacturers don't provide that. After all, most everything is electronic these days.
 

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Don't worry - the oil level will be easier to see as it creeps above the orange plastic piece between oil changes - if you are one of the many CRV owners experiencing oil dilution. But that's a different thread. :)
 

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Thank you for the picture. Looking at the two, for me, the top one will be easier to read. Perhaps I will order a replacement and knock that plastic thingy off. When I go for an oil change, I'll just replace it with the original so as to not create a problem at the dealer.
Why go to a dealer for an oil change? DIY, it's easy.
 

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2017 CRV Ex-L with Nav. I have the orange tipped dipstick. Almost impossible to read it with new full synthetic oil. I have never seen a dipstick in 50 years as bad as this one. Only a little better as the oil ages & gets darker. It is as if someone at Honda had a bright idea on paper & never tested it. Yellow might be a little better since it is a lighter color but it might also be closer to the color of new oil. The customer becomes the guinea pig. If someone had used the orange tipped dipstick just one time to check the oil they would have known the problem.
 

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look at this BMW stick (before BMW removed sticks completely, and changed to an electronic sensor and readout) o_O
I got to correct you on one thing. They use to have two dipsticks, one in the engine bay where we would always look for it, but they change it to the single one. It's that humanoid looking thing behind the wheel!!! 😂🤣
 

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I solved the problem for me of not being able to check the oil accurately. I just quit checking it. I get the oil changed every 7500 miles and don't worry about it. I had the oil dilution issue around 30K and I quit worrying about that too. I have 60K on it and plane to keep it one more year. I have not had to add oil between changes in 40 years.
 

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I checked the oil level for the first time yesterday. My CR-V is brand new with just 136 miles on it. Much to my surprise, I pulled out the dipstick and just about laughed my head off. What has happened to the traditional dipstick with the big flat bar that makes seeing the level so easy? Now these bright engineers have developed one with a bit of yellow plastic on the end with two small holes. I don't know about you, but how on earth can one see a proper level on that thing? Maybe there are those out there that are OK with it. But really, why can't they just stay with what works and is easy to see the oil level at a glance.
[/
Sounds like it’s time for reading glasses. 🤓
 
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