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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK-never really on here because the 09 awd is actually my sons that i picked up for him as an upgrade from his 03 corolla (he was going about an hour away to college and with coming home down I5 on the weekends, wanted him to have something safer). So some friends had an 09 awd they were trying to sell (with no luck) as they were going to buy a new 2019 crv. Decided just for gits and shiggles i would go check it out as we were really looking at civics. To make a short story long, i saw the reason they were having a hard time selling it-it had 230K and the inside looked like it hadn't been detailed since new. But, being a car guy (we have restored 2 vintage mustangs ourselves and always have something fun in the stable to drive on nice days!) that didn't bother me but i was ready to politely just tell them we were looking for a car instead of an suv. Then i saw a folder on the pass. seat and after talking with them, they always had it serviced at the same local shop since new. I looked through the folder and they had records since day one-the shop overkilled them to death with syn blend oil changes every 3k, etc, but everything, and i mean everything had been maintained way more than i would have done it (and i am mega meticulous with maintenance!). So, picked it up for 4,250 which i thought was a great deal as the miles didn't scare me with that kind of maintenance. Now, this is where it gets interesting. We have had toyos and hondas forever, and i know there are certain oem fluids that those with way more expertise than me say you don't want to get away from. (ie Honda PS fluid, tranny fluid). So, in looking through all the pages of service/maintenance (he is home for the summer so we just finished going through everything), here are some things that shocked me and go against everything ive read/heard. Keep in mind this car has 235K on it now and hasn't had any problems at all since new except they replaced a wiper motor. In looking through the records i found:
1) Manual specifically says you can use another PS fluid besides Honda temporarily, but then says "DO NOT USE ATF". What have they been putting in there for the past 10yrs/230K? yep, ATF!
2) I have always read that MOST people say a tranny flush is a big no no, as you can break lose stuff during the flush and that is no bueno. They flush the tranny every time! (They are using a BG flushing machine).
3) In my manual IIRC Honda always makes it a point to say "DO NOT USE ADDITIVES", whether it be in the engine, trans, diff, whatever. These guys used additives in everything!!! (thus enforcing the fact that additives are a HUGE moneymaker for shops! They were plunking in an unspecified motor oil additive with their syn-blend at $20 a pop, some additive in the tranny at $30, on and on..they must not make an additive for the wiper fluid tho, as that was only $10 to refill!)
4) There is ALWAYS discussion/debate about oil/filters (we currently have a c5 vette and those guys will debate that forever!) These guys used napa's pro-select which they say is made for dino oil and 3K change intervals (which they did...again, more $$$$!!!) but they were using a syn-blend (which is probably not a big deal as i'm not sure what the ratio of syn to dino is on the blends-IIRC i think 1:4?) but, cheapest oil filter napa has-not the silver, or the gold, or the platinum...the pro-select!

So, this stuff kind of rocks my world being a car guy-i could see if at 120K the thing blew a tranny or the PS pump went out-could mark that up to possibly the wrong fluid or an unnecessary additive...but this car has been incredible! So what does it prove? That the never ending debate about fluid type/brand is really irrelevant and that its the frequency of the fluid changes that REALLY MATTER? (oh crap, i can feel the pitter patter of Royal Purple and Amsoil enthusiasts ready to break down my door!!) I don't know the answer? I'm a tried and true M1 full syn user, along with a wix/napa gold filter in EVERYTHING i own, even the vette, but am i just throwing away money? Is all the talk about YOU NEED TO USE ONLY HONDA OEM FLUID IN THE TRANNY and DON'T EVER FLUSH IT!, etc really just a way for Honda to make more money? Man, i don't know...with 235K on the clock and still running like new, i think it brings up questions about the validity of such statements? Not trying to stir up any huge debates or anything, i just found this super interesting and there probably aren't a ton of "sample vehicles" out there that something like this was done to consistently for 10 years and 230,000 miles. Just something to mull over!!!!
john
ps-i can kind of see no problems in the tranny becasue of the flushes, because with all those flushes they have gotten i'm sure there has never been a spec of anything in there! I can see the no flush thing if someone looks down and says "crap, i have 150K and i've never changed the tranny fluid-better get it flushed!) That could go south pretty quick!

pps-just for fun, i added up how much they spent at the shop for all their maintenance....$11,872.63 !!!!!!!!!
 

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I'm a "mostly Honda fluids" kinda guy.
I believe the ATF and MTF (if you're lucky enough to own a manual trans!) need to be the appropriate Honda fluid, and there is no substitute for Honda Dual Pump Fluid in the rear differential.
Any oil that meets the Honda specifications is fine, as is the same for the power steering and brake fluids.
The last time I bought windshield wiper fluid was when I lived in a state that had seriously cold winters with ice and snow for months on end. For those I used a deicing windshield wiper fluid.
 

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Everything in Moderation
2006 CR-V EX, 5MT
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With that type of excessive maintenance, I can see where the car is holding up well. "All it takes is MONEY", LOL

I bet the total would have been even more if they performed the same level of maintenance at a dealership.

EXAMPLE: If they did a trans flush every time, there wouldn't be enough debris inside the trans passages to do any clogging. BUT It sounds as if they spent WAY more money than they had to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
yeah, totally - my son and i did a LOF, rear diff change and a tranny fluid change and i told him he probably saved about $250. Then i looked in the records and they did the same thing for $600! That really opened his eyes as to why i more or less force him to come out and wrench with me!!!
 

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One thing that might also surprise you is that the parts for Hondas are not as expensive as you'd think. Good quality aftermarket parts are plenty good enough and hold up well, and even Honda's fluids don't cost all that much in the grand scheme of things. I just ordered a case of the DW-1 ATF for under $6/qt.. (I also had shipping charges, but I also ordered quite a few other things, including a couple of parts I needed, so it all worked out well in the end.) Hondas overall are one of the least expensive brands to own and operate (and that includes insurance), so it is a good choice for a young driver.
 

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I have learned the hard way that there’s no point of getting OEM brake discs, for example. I will replace mine with one of the reputable brake company’s bits the next brake service. Gen4’s brakes are underdimensioned and I can only hope some quality discs will withstand the weight of the car.
 

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I have learned the hard way that there’s no point of getting OEM brake discs, for example. I will replace mine with one of the reputable brake company’s bits the next brake service. Gen4’s brakes are underdimensioned and I can only hope some quality discs will withstand the weight of the car.
I wonder if you'd be better off getting one of the "performace" rotor options, some of which are cross-drilled. With that and a good set of grippy pads, that should help. My 3rd gen's brakes grab well enough, although I've found the rears can be somewhat finicky re: replacement. (I always buy Akebono pads, which are OEM on many manufacturers' cars. They are not inexpensive, but they last and they grip well. My rears have both needed new spring clip hardware sets, as they corrode and prevent the pads from gliding in the calipers as they should.)
 

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I wonder if you'd be better off getting one of the "performace" rotor options, some of which are cross-drilled. With that and a good set of grippy pads, that should help.
They're fine for normal speeds but I drive to Germany once or twice a year and the discs can only take one hard braking at Autobahn speed and they're done. Naturally, it does not have to happen but sometimes the traffic is not as smooth as it should be.
 
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OK-never really on here because the 09 awd is actually my sons that i picked up for him as an upgrade from his 03 corolla (he was going about an hour away to college and with coming home down I5 on the weekends, wanted him to have something safer). So some friends had an 09 awd they were trying to sell (with no luck) as they were going to buy a new 2019 crv. Decided just for gits and shiggles i would go check it out as we were really looking at civics. To make a short story long, i saw the reason they were having a hard time selling it-it had 230K and the inside looked like it hadn't been detailed since new. But, being a car guy (we have restored 2 vintage mustangs ourselves and always have something fun in the stable to drive on nice days!) that didn't bother me but i was ready to politely just tell them we were looking for a car instead of an suv. Then i saw a folder on the pass. seat and after talking with them, they always had it serviced at the same local shop since new. I looked through the folder and they had records since day one-the shop overkilled them to death with syn blend oil changes every 3k, etc, but everything, and i mean everything had been maintained way more than i would have done it (and i am mega meticulous with maintenance!). So, picked it up for 4,250 which i thought was a great deal as the miles didn't scare me with that kind of maintenance. Now, this is where it gets interesting. We have had toyos and hondas forever, and i know there are certain oem fluids that those with way more expertise than me say you don't want to get away from. (ie Honda PS fluid, tranny fluid). So, in looking through all the pages of service/maintenance (he is home for the summer so we just finished going through everything), here are some things that shocked me and go against everything ive read/heard. Keep in mind this car has 235K on it now and hasn't had any problems at all since new except they replaced a wiper motor. In looking through the records i found:
1) Manual specifically says you can use another PS fluid besides Honda temporarily, but then says "DO NOT USE ATF". What have they been putting in there for the past 10yrs/230K? yep, ATF!
2) I have always read that MOST people say a tranny flush is a big no no, as you can break lose stuff during the flush and that is no bueno. They flush the tranny every time! (They are using a BG flushing machine).
3) In my manual IIRC Honda always makes it a point to say "DO NOT USE ADDITIVES", whether it be in the engine, trans, diff, whatever. These guys used additives in everything!!! (thus enforcing the fact that additives are a HUGE moneymaker for shops! They were plunking in an unspecified motor oil additive with their syn-blend at $20 a pop, some additive in the tranny at $30, on and on..they must not make an additive for the wiper fluid tho, as that was only $10 to refill!)
4) There is ALWAYS discussion/debate about oil/filters (we currently have a c5 vette and those guys will debate that forever!) These guys used napa's pro-select which they say is made for dino oil and 3K change intervals (which they did...again, more $$$$!!!) but they were using a syn-blend (which is probably not a big deal as i'm not sure what the ratio of syn to dino is on the blends-IIRC i think 1:4?) but, cheapest oil filter napa has-not the silver, or the gold, or the platinum...the pro-select!

So, this stuff kind of rocks my world being a car guy-i could see if at 120K the thing blew a tranny or the PS pump went out-could mark that up to possibly the wrong fluid or an unnecessary additive...but this car has been incredible! So what does it prove? That the never ending debate about fluid type/brand is really irrelevant and that its the frequency of the fluid changes that REALLY MATTER? (oh crap, i can feel the pitter patter of Royal Purple and Amsoil enthusiasts ready to break down my door!!) I don't know the answer? I'm a tried and true M1 full syn user, along with a wix/napa gold filter in EVERYTHING i own, even the vette, but am i just throwing away money? Is all the talk about YOU NEED TO USE ONLY HONDA OEM FLUID IN THE TRANNY and DON'T EVER FLUSH IT!, etc really just a way for Honda to make more money? Man, i don't know...with 235K on the clock and still running like new, i think it brings up questions about the validity of such statements? Not trying to stir up any huge debates or anything, i just found this super interesting and there probably aren't a ton of "sample vehicles" out there that something like this was done to consistently for 10 years and 230,000 miles. Just something to mull over!!!!
john
ps-i can kind of see no problems in the tranny becasue of the flushes, because with all those flushes they have gotten i'm sure there has never been a spec of anything in there! I can see the no flush thing if someone looks down and says "crap, i have 150K and i've never changed the tranny fluid-better get it flushed!) That could go south pretty quick!

pps-just for fun, i added up how much they spent at the shop for all their maintenance....$11,872.63 !!!!!!!!!
That's a pretty wild story! They spent enough to go and buy another nice low mileage CR-V. Crazy. This is the opposite of what I've seen. Like the lady who brought her tiny little Ford with a FWD 1.5L manual trans to me for a clutch. Had to pull the engine to do the clutch. There was no oil in the engine, none. When I asked her, she had never even checked it! Car had 105k miles on it. $600 later, she picked up the car and proceeded to burn up the engine a month later. She wanted to blame me. Unbelievable.

Some people are meticulous. Others are meticulously negligent. Some go overboard, some under. :giggle: I'm old school, stubborn, set in my ways about what has always worked for me. People ask my advice and then want to argue. I just let them be who they are. Who else would they try to be, anyway? But, as much as it can be irritating, it can also be entertaining.

All this begs the question - What do you do now? Do you follow your own tried and true practices? I would. But that's me. I'm predictable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
yeah, i asked myself that question MANY times-it is written on the invoice that the components that were flushed (ie engine, tranny, rear diff, PS) are under a lifetime warranty as long as you keep taking it there. But, it is what it is...an 07 crv ex with 240K! I have decided that it is kind of at the point of diminishing returns, in that in reality he is a 19 year old guy and it is PERFECT for what he needs now-good, reliable, and most importantly safe transportation for the next 2 or 3 years as he finishes college. Then he will get some big engineering job and make twice what i make as a teacher in no time and the crv will be gone for something a little newer and not so "old peopleee"! (I know we just bought a 2019 civic hatch and LOVE all the new tech/safety features..wanted a new crv but just couldn't swing it cost wise with one in college and the other almost there too). We did switch out from syn blend to full synthetic (he won't drive it much in college, maybe only put 5K on it in a year) so it will be annual LOF's for now, and we did switch to the Dual Pump and the OEM tranny fluid as those were due to be changed anyways. Thought about a full flush on the PS to get the ATF out and the right Honda stuff in there (ie disconnect the hose, turn the wheel, etc as we just did that on my son's 07 civic and that is an easy job) as i didn't want to turkey baste it and mix the 2 fluids, but they just flushed it like 10K ago, so we are going to let that set for a few years/miles...don't want one of those "if it ain't broke, i haven't tried to fix it" moments come up at this point!!
 

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Everything in Moderation
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It only takes TWO 12oz. bottles of Honda P.S. fluid to change it out via the turkey baster method.
 

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I wonder how many bottles it takes to do it via disconnecting one of the hoses and purging the system by turning the steering wheel back and forth. The service manual gives the procedure but I don't recall it giving the capacity of the PS system. I bought one bottle to top mine off, but it was inexpensive enough that I could get a few more and give this thing a full flush.

I am probably going to tackle the brake bleeding soon. I have a vacuum pump for it now, so I can do it singlehanded. I already have the DOT3/DOT4 fluid ready to go.
 

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I would never mix fluids, and I would never use the turkey baster method, ever. I only do a full flush on power steering and brakes. Anything less leaves contaminants in the system, and fluids are way cheaper than parts.

It still amazes me that the bleed sequence on this Gen3 is backwards from the old standard order. Every time I think about it a little blood leaks out of my left ear. :giggle:
 

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My understanding of the turkey baster method is you use it to remove the fluid from the reservoir, top off the reservoir with new fluid, and then continue with "normal" bleeding of the system.
Replacing the fluid in the reservoir as the first step just speeds up the bleeding process.
 

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I gotcha. Mine was just the first part alone and no flushing. Said to replace about a third of the fluid, done periodically, would keep it fresh enough. Your method makes perfect sense. I actually do that anyway, sort of, just without the baster. I just start flushing, and refill as needed to never let the reservoir run completely dry. I consider it flushing, rather than bleeding, as there is a pump, and no necessity to remove air from lines, as the pump will. But I still don't like to get a big dose of air in them, so I keep refilling till all fluid is clean. But it's just words. The key is to end up with a fully fresh fluid supply in the system. Now, if I'm doing the same thing with my ex, then I call it bleeding. :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
yeah, disconnecting the inlet hose is the best way to completely flush the system. Did it on my sons 07 civic a few weeks ago and its quick and easy. Takes more time to set it up than the actual flush which takes only 5 or 10 minutes. Gotta use a clear hose to connect to the inlet hose so you can see when your fluid runs clean and then you can stop. I bought 3 qts i think (maybe only 2) for the civic and we were clean, but his fluid wasn't dirty at all (PS fluid doesn't get trashed too bad-on our C5 corvette which is a garage queen i just turkey baste it with every oil change because its cheap and easy and keeps it clean) No way i would use the baster method on the crv as i don't know what kind of fluid is in there now and i don't want any problem with dis-similar fluids. and if its worked great for 230 K, i ain't changin' it!! Also, don't let anyone tell you the turkeybaster method works fine for your brakes. There is always a HUGE debate on the vette forum from guys that think that it will be a substitute for a brake bleed and its not the case at all-that method will only clean your reservoir, and your mc does not "mix" the fluid in your lines-your MC just pushes the fluid to make the calipers close. the turkey baster method was originally called "the ranger method" and it is HOTLY debated in corvette circles and i'm sure other places. But the guys that really know and track their cars will always do a true bleed as the turkey baster way still leaves dirty/contaminated fluid past the reservoir in your lines. Definitely don't want to open up a can of worms on that topic, but definitely do your research before thinking the ranger method is a substitute for a "real" brake flush-definitely not trying to make anyone upset, but just do your homework and decide which is the best for your situation/skill level!!
(and then if you get bored, do some reading on the best way to flush your brakes-motive? mityvac? ancient 2 person open-push-closed-up method? now THAT will make your head spin!! (hey, its a great way to bond with your signif other....honey, can you come help me bleed the brakes please???? With 5 cars, its cost me a lot on dinners out!!) Good luck all ;)
 

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I bought one of those vacuum brake bleeder kits. I have yet to use it, but I have four cars to bleed, five if we count the CR-V that is slowly turning to a pile of rust in the backyard. (I need to get it running before I can sell it as a mechanic's special.) I bought a quart bottle of DOT3/DOT4 fluid, but I have no idea what the capacity of these systems is.

I usually go by whatever method the service manual says for changing fluids. I haven't really looked into any other way to do the PS pump and lines, as it's not a priority. But the fluid is a bit darker in my '09, so I may tackle it before the cold weather hits.
 
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