It's important to note that this video isn't accurate for the 2023 version. Similar, but not the same.

I think Dafish has it right,

"It’s my opinion I-MMD will rarely be as efficient and never as flexible as a planetary E-CVT, but Honda has made at least three important improvements that I suspect will bring it very close in capability IRL. "

I am curious about the suggestion that regen braking doesn't have as much mpg benefit as running the ICE at closer to optimum thermal efficiency and letting the battery/motor be the buffer. That would suggest that the mpg benefit would accrue to the "highway mileage" rather than the "city mileage" and we know that's not the case. Now that it's not -9 F outside, I got 34 mpg on a 70 minute highway trip that was a steady 60-70 mph in my 2023 Sport Touring - which was pretty comparable to my 2015 Otto cycle ICE CRV (33 mpg). I do hit 40+ mpg in suburban/urban driving with the hybrid vs 22-25 in the 2015 model.

I think you all got way in the weeds about the hp rating and such. Virtually all of it is meaningless to the end-user now. With a traditional ICE drivetrain, engine hp (and vehicle weight) yielded a reasonably reliable "zoom-zoom" factor that you could compare across vehicles. It wasn't perfect, but you really could put a car on a dyno and measure what was getting to the (rear) wheels / the power curve, etc. Most end users' concept of hp - and how that translates into "zoom-zoom" -- is based on ICE engines.

"Zoom-zoom" is an imprecise term, of course. It's best defined as how the car behaves when it's asked to accelerate in real driving situations such as accelerating away from a stop, merging onto a highway from 35 mph to 70, passing another vehicle that's going 50 mph before the oncoming truck flattens you, or accelerating up a hill under load. The perception of "Zoom-zoom" by a typical driver and a traditional ICE drivetrain was also tied to a power band that started at lower engine rpm's. In other words, you didn't have to get near redline in order to get around granny.

With hybrid, the old hp measurements don't similarly translate into "zoom-zoom". For one thing, electric motors can produce 100% of their torque at 0 rpm. An electric motor can move a car off the line pretty quickly, with less hp than an ICE engine, because of the low-end torque. What's more, a hybrid can operate in serial, parallel, or some work both modes - depending on the demand. I think it's misleading to use "combined hp", for example, when a hybrid was designed for primarily serial hybrid drive as the Honda CRV/Accord was prior to 2023. For much of the time that a typical driver was using the car, the limiting factor in the pre-2023 Honda hybrid was the output of the main traction motor - it didn't really matter that much what the ICE was capable of because you would need to be going way over any legal speed limit to actually see that hp. And it certainly was misleading to give a combined hp. Combined hp makes more sense on a hybrid capable - in hardware and software - of parallel drive for a given period of time. Combined hp rating on a Toyota hybrid makes sense in a 20 second burst for merging on a highway - it's completely misleading for hauling five passengers and luggage up the side of a mountain at 65 mph for a sustained period.

 

I still don’t understand why Honda chooses to market it as an “e-CVT.” Reviewers who don’t bother to learn about the product they’re reviewing seem to complain early and often about the CVT that the CR-V Hybrid doesn’t have.

 

Most auto-pseudo-journo's are so ingrained with trash from Germany, they dont know how to deal with Honda's engineering superiority.

 

Anyone want to chime in and educate me seeing as I'm a newbie Honda owner?

This might be a quicker introduction. It's technically about the Accord, but everything is the same except AWD.

 

Interesting video I had not seen before thanks.
In the video, the narrator mentions that the hybrid gets its fast cruising speed from the ICE.
Wonder why he did not mention that EV drive will activate as well at higher speeds?
I have witnessed EV mode while traveling between 65-70 mph.
Unless this is different in the Accord.

 

Thank you JeffJo and BoostedV for those videos. Excellent for this old guy to follow to learn new systems.

 

It works very simply:
D - it drives forward
R - it goes backward
N - Transmission disengaged
P - Car doesn't move.

That's all you need to know!

 

Ah but what about PRNDL?

PRNDL — why mess with it?

If the sequence of the shift pattern is standard, why are we trying to mess with it, Jim Kenzie asks.

www.thestar.com

 

Actually, from top to bottom it is:

• P - Car doesn't move
• R - When accelerator pressed, motor accelerates car in backward direction
  • You can use it when moving slowly forward, to reverse direction without stopping
• N - Motors do not accelerate car in either direction
• D - When accelerator pressed, motor or engine accelerates car in forward direction
  • You can use it when moving slowly backward, to reverse direction without stopping

What commentators find confusing, is that it isn't a lever that you move forward or backward, requiring you to either look at the indicator or count notches. Instead, it's easy-to-find buttons when you are moving and don't want to look.

• The P and N are buttons you need to look at to find - but then, you aren't moving, so that's no big deal.
• R is an indented button that is found easily by swiping your hand down along the panel in a - wait for it - backward direction.
• D has a huge, self-centering rim that makes it easy to find by just placing a finger anywhere near it.
• L? We ain't got no L. We don't need no L. I don't have to push any stinkin' L!

I admit it took about a week to get used to it. But I've never had a simpler, easier-to-use shifter. Just yesterday I had to make a seven-point turn to reverse the direction of the car in a tight parking lot. I didn't need brakes, stopping, or lever-moving. Just toggling between two buttons with my foot off of the pedals (actually, ready to brake if needed).

 

Actually, from top to bottom it is:

• P - Car doesn't move
• R - When accelerator pressed, motor accelerates car in backward direction
  • You can use it when moving slowly forward, to reverse direction without stopping
• N - Motors do not accelerate car in either direction
• D - When accelerator pressed, motor or engine accelerates car in forward direction
  • You can use it when moving slowly backward, to reverse direction without stopping

[…]
I admit it took about a week to get used to it. But I've never had a simpler, easier-to-use shifter. Just yesterday I had to make a seven-point turn to reverse the direction of the car in a tight parking lot. I didn't need brakes, stopping, or lever-moving. Just toggling between two buttons with my foot off of the pedals (actually, ready to brake if needed).

It would never have occurred to me to try to shift directly into opposite modes while the vehicle is moving, so I checked the manual. Page 475:

When you change D to R and vice versa, come to a complete stop and keep the brake pedal depressed. Operating the shift button before the vehicle has come to a complete standstill can damage the transmission.

 

The true reality is that the 2.0 Atkinson engine only ever directly engages with the drive wheels when the vehicle is traveling at essentially freeway speeds in cruise mode and when it does engage it is a single gear ratio. Think of this more like a single "overdrive" gear as when the engine does engage.. the electric drive motors remain engaged as well.

The rest of the time, the engine powers generators which then power the electric motors that drive the wheels, except for rare exceptions where the tiny little buffer battery is allowed to drive the vehicle in a true E-drive for a few miles at a time.

So the e-CVT terminology is itself kind of misleading.. but once the owner reads through the documentation.. they usually understand it and get that the actual gear shift buttons on the center console are electronic and largely fake as far as CVT nomenclature are concerned in any traditional sense. It would be most accurate to say that what Honda calls e-CVT is actually just a drive select for P, R N, D. Ergonomically though.. Honda has designed the button assembly such that owners generally would need to deliberately create a hazard condition of R->D or D->R on purpose.

This is all more complex on the CRV compared to the Accord hybrids.. due to AWD for the CRV.. the entire approach and design concept is essentially the same otherwise.

 

The rest of the time, the engine powers generators which then power the electric motors that drive the wheels, except for rare exceptions where the tiny little buffer battery is allowed to drive the vehicle in a true E-drive for a few miles at a time.

Honda claims this is a 2 motor system, but when does the other motor (usually labelled 'generator' in diagrams) provide motive power to the wheels?

While an electric generator can act as a motor (a device which provides motive power) and vice versa, it seems like this is a 2 generator system sometimes, and a 1 generator/1 motor system sometimes...

 

As noted by BoostedV, it's not a CVT but a direct drive

 

And as I noted, it is a transmission system that can continuously vary the ratio of ICE rpms to wheel rpms.

• In EV Drive, the ICE is off and this is irrelevant.
• In Engine Drive, the engine drives the wheels directly (what you called "a direct drive") in a single gear ratio, but the traction motor can ad or subtract power from it.
• In Hybrid Drive, the traction motor drives the wheels, the ICE drives the generator, and the Power Control Unit sends its electricity to the motor and/or battery.
  • This is the part where "eCVT" applies. It isn't the same as what is usually called "CVT," or what Toyota calls an eCVT, but it is a continuously-varying transmission system. In particular, it has gearing that is lubricated with Honda ATF DW-1 automatic transmission fluid.

(From Honda reasearch paper "Development of Motor and PCU for a SPORT HYBRID i-MMD System," by Jiro Kuroki and Hiroshi Otsuka).

True.. but it likely would take a toll on the drive motors if you do it often. Most likely burning some of the motor components.

Why? It is conceptually quite similar to switching from Engine Drive to Hybrid Drive above. There is no unique strain on the motor when it switches power modes, even if it switches direction. All that happens is that the three-phase power cycles change.

 

Great thread. I actually was looking for more info on the tech and found that video posted earlier on the cr-v hybrid transmission. I drove an early cvt equipped Nissan years ago and did not like it at all.

Cvt in the latest non-hybrid Cr-v was ok and I was willing to accept it. Test drove the hybrid and I really liked it, not knowing that there was no cvt in it. I just enjoyed it much more. Haven’t driven it much since it’s my wife’s car and I want her to get her thrills first, but maybe I’ll take it out for a drive in sport mode and see what that’s all about.

 

Just bumping this thread for reference:

https://hondanews.eu/gb/en/cars/media/pressreleases/159200/2019-honda-cr-v-hybrid56

Innovative fixed-gear transmission

Rather than using a conventional transmission, a single fixed-gear ratio creates a direct connection between moving components, resulting in a smoother transfer of torque. This format means Honda’s system is more compact than a planetary eCVT typically found in other hybrid vehicles, as well as being more refined.

Engineers on the CR-V Hybrid programme have worked hard to ensure that the transfer between power sources – including the engine stop-start function – is virtually imperceptible to the occupants. The smooth transfer of torque means there is no driveline shunt or undesirable feedback through the pedals or steering wheel, and the near-silent powertrain means the CR-V Hybrid boasts outstanding NVH management.

The fixed-gear format of Honda’s i-MMD system has been specifically tuned for the European market to provide a linear feel through acceleration, with optimised calibration between throttle input and powertrain response, to ensure the engine sound matches the driver’s expectations. In addition, the first application of Active Sound Control to CR-V also enriches the drivers experience delivering the natural sound of acceleration relative to the engine speed.

 

The fixed-gear format of Honda’s i-MMD system has been specifically tuned for the European market to provide a linear feel through acceleration, with optimised calibration between throttle input and powertrain response, to ensure the engine sound matches the driver’s expectations. In addition, the first application of Active Sound Control to CR-V also enriches the drivers experience delivering the natural sound of acceleration relative to the engine speed.

What does this gabble even mean, 'the first application of Active Sound Control' that enriches the drivers' experience 🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

Probably the Honda UK Press Team using different word-salad....

 

Here's the link to a video which shows how the eCVT works. It came from the Clubjazz forum, the author is John D. Kelly, Weber State University, it's a bit long but the guy is a university prof.

 

This video has been posted before and is one of the most interesting video's I have watched for a long time if he had been my teacher I would of learnt a lot more

 

I found this video to be super helpful in understanding what makes the car go vroom.

 

Another good video that explains how this computer on wheels works.

 

So, when you start the IC engine, which battery supplies power to the "starter motor"?

 

I’m pretty sure it’s the hybrid battery.
the 12 volt battery is just for the electronics and seems way to small to start an enigma. Also both the motors are AC Motors.

 

I owned A 2017 Honda accord hybrid and when its 12 V battery died the car simply would not turn on it wasn’t like a gas car where you got a week starter as the engine cranked when a battery was low.

I carry a portable jump starter and used it to jump start it. It instantly turned on when I used it but the dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree until the 12 volt battery got charged. Ended up having to replace the12 volt battery a few days later.

so as far as the battery it’s binary as it either turns on or does nothing, there is no middle ground.

But if it does use the 12 volt battery to spin up the ICE when the car is turned on it would have to feed through an inverter as the Motor/generator needs AC power.

But my gas engine never turns on when I first start driving and doesn’t kick in until I’m moving.

 

I owned A 2017 Honda accord hybrid and when its 12 V battery died the car simply would not turn on it wasn’t like a gas car where you got a week starter as the engine cranked when a battery was low.

The traction (high-voltage) battery supplies power to, and pulls power from, the two motor generators. The 12V battery powers the computers that control the hybrid system. Part of that is controlling how much power to supply to, or pull from, the two motor generators. So if the 12V battery can't power this computer, the car won't do anything.

 

..... deleted

 

Duplicate threads merged.

 

I was watching the power flow displays today and thought... it doesn't show that the electric motor is helping the IC engine, but I bet there is a lot of both of them providing motive power at the same time.

 

Sure it does. When the little gear symbol appears at the intersection of the lines, it means the ICE and motor-generator are both connected mechanically to the wheels.

But saying "the MG is helping the ICE" isn't quite right in the CR-V hybrid. It's just semantics, but Hondas are different than other hybrids where that phrase is used.

• The MG is your primary mover. When the gear symbol isn't there, only the MG is turning the wheels.
• When it is there, and blue lines are coming from both the engine symbol and the battery symbol, you could argue that it is the ICE helping the MG. But really they are just "working together." This should only happen when you are accelerating slowly.
• But when green lines are going from the gear to the battery, it means the main MG is acting as a generator. The ICE is turning both it, and the wheels. That isn't "help."
• If you add more acceleration, the gear will disappear and the MG is alone again.

 

.., it has gearing that is lubricated with Honda ATF DW-1 automatic transmission fluid.

Enjoyed reading the quite lucid explanations, thank you. This also makes it easy to service our Ridgelines and Hybrid CRVs since both use same fluid.

 

Does anyone know at what speed transmission switches in to the Engine drive mode? Is it 65mph, 70mph or above?

 

In the Accord, Engine Drive is nominally used between about 44 mph and 75 mph. (The gearing in the CR-V differs by about 1%, so the speeds at essetisllh the same.) But I have seen it as low as about 40 mph on a downhill road.

If you got that 65 mph number from the Weber State video, Prof. Kelly has added a correction in the comments.

 

Someone here mentioned that the Engine Drive happens at freeway speeds, which are 55/65+. In other words at highway speeds CR-V uses no output from the electric motor?

 

I saw the gear symbol appear between about 70 and 130km / h (about 45-80mph) but only on the flat and at constant speed or light acceleration. If you increase the acceleration a little, the electric motor is also used but if you accelerate harder the ICE is released and works only as a generator (hybrid mode).

 

@harmanrk My manual suggests that the car uses Hybrid Operating Mode in high-load condition and Engine Operating Mode in low-load conditions.

As I understand in the Engine Operating Mode the car still uses the electric motor for added propulsion as long as there is enough charge in the HV battery. But assuming there is not much of regenerative braking, the battery soon gets depleted or discharged to the point the car stops using the electric motor.

What I'm still missing is the point (if there is any) when only the engine is used for propulsion regardless of the current battery charge. I.e. when the car decides it does not need help of the electric motor at all for propulsion even if the HV battery is at full charge.

 

@harmanrk My manual suggests that the car uses Hybrid Operating Mode in high-load condition and Engine Operating Mode in low-load conditions.

View attachment 146721

As I understand in the Engine Operating Mode the car still uses the electric motor for added propulsion as long as there is enough charge in the HV battery. But assuming there is not much of regenerative braking, the battery soon gets depleted or discharged to the point the car stops using the electric motor.

What I'm still missing is the point (if there is any) when only the engine is used for propulsion regardless of the current battery charge. I.e. when the car decides it does not need help of the electric motor at all for propulsion even if the HV battery is at full charge.

This is a great table you shared with us here.

I admire your nuanced curiosity about wanting even more detail, but in my view.... the table you shared tells owners enough of the story, and does so concisely. To carry it further is kind of going into the weeds a bit. Nothing wrong with visiting the weeds (especially in an enthusiast forum), but it's not appealing to everyone.

 

Kentzo, That is what I was trying to get across. In low load, stead speed, the ICE pushes the car down the road. As it does, the small motor /generator continues to turn (it turns whenever the ICE is running) and produces energy that is then stored for later use. Because of this, there should never be a time when the HVB is drained and the traction motor cannot assist. In addition there will be time when the load it very light, that the computer will turn off the ICE, and just draw from the HVB to push the car.

JeffJo has pointed out there is little (I would argue more than 'little') actual savings on this EV mode, as the energy in the HVB is produced by Reg braking (small), and the ICE turning the motor generator (large), and that this larger portion comes from burning gasoline at some point previous. That said there are many points where the ICE is more efficient to produce a surplus of energy for the traction motor and the HVB, instead of the smaller need of just the traction motor at the given time.

When there is more load than he ICE can deal with, the traction motor is used for additional power. Consider any time your traditional automatic might downshift on the highway, for a hill, or to pass another car. As the CRV only has one gear, a downshift is not possible, but the traction motor is used to provide the extra power.

 

As it does, the small motor /generator continues to turn (it turns whenever the ICE is running) and produces energy that is then stored for later use.

That does make sense, but the table says "No Output" for the Generator. What's meant by that, is it rotating with +/- being disconnected from the battery? But then it mentions "Charging" for the battery in the same column. Very confusing.

but it's not appealing to everyone.

I thought after WeberAuto's video my questions were quite lightweight