[banks99]

I see that all images advertising the newer R5A actuator are stamped the same as the old (with R44). I can't find that anyone has ever actually taken them apart for a side by side comparison.

I'm also curious if Honda is the actual manufacturer. Perhaps another company, such as WVE (their part 3T1025 looks identical) provides them for Honda.

Lastly, do you think the only difference between R44 and R5A is the spring? Perhaps the R5A spring is wider, longer, stiffer, or was R5A just a part number change to appease customers until the majority of warranties expire?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a pretty cool design. Perhaps the implementation of that design could have been improved. Those wear springs that separate components are also likely to degrade, lessening ability to remain concentric, and therefore also contributing to the locking pin's inability to engage during cold starts.

Here are some of the changes made:

• 12/03/2007 — U-Groove width sorting at Denso
• 9/11/2008 — Select Fit to achieve target Stopper Pin Depth
• 9/10/2009 — DC – Revise Pin Depth Spec from 2.02mm-5.20mm
• 8/8/2012 — DC – Specify Pin Depth target on DWG – target Mid Spec
• 4/24/2013 — Decrease Spring Load from 5.78 to 3.64N
• 9/24/2015 — Design Change A1508259 issued for 14310-R5A-305

I personally don’t think it’s an oil issue. Sure, thicker oil will mask the problem because it will theoretically keep the top end lubricated long enough that you don’t hear the rattle even if it was rattling. This is the concept with my use of liquimoly MOS2. For us up north, thicker oil won’t work for us in the winters as it would take longer to get to the top of the engine.

 

[downeast]

So in 2013 they actually decreased the spring load?

In 2015, that design change must have been when they went from R44 to RSA, but I can't find anything explaining what A1508259 actually did.

 

[downeast]

While I'm waiting for a valve cover gasket I ordered to arrive, I decided to have a look at the VTC oil control solenoid. (Honda 15830-R5A-A01). I found the following:

Looked very clean.
With key on, voltage to it is 3V.
8.3 ohms across its contacts
No short to its body from either contact.
Appears to open and close freely as tested with 12V.

However, I have no idea if these values are normal, and don't have a manual. I cleaned it with carb cleaner, cleaned contacts, dipped it in oil, and reinstalled. Anyone know if the above values are within range?

 

[emendoza99]

I'm coming onto 1 year of replacing the spring, rattle occurs very rarely (and when it does its much quieter) and did not appear when we had temps at -30C. So far for a cheap fix I am satisfied.

what spring did you use and did you put both the old and new as others have mentioned? thatnks

 

[riverrockG19]

Here are some of the changes made:

• 12/03/2007 — U-Groove width sorting at Denso
• 9/11/2008 — Select Fit to achieve target Stopper Pin Depth
• 9/10/2009 — DC – Revise Pin Depth Spec from 2.02mm-5.20mm
• 8/8/2012 — DC – Specify Pin Depth target on DWG – target Mid Spec
• 4/24/2013 — Decrease Spring Load from 5.78 to 3.64N
• 9/24/2015 — Design Change A1508259 issued for 14310-R5A-305

I personally don’t think it’s an oil issue. Sure, thicker oil will mask the problem because it will theoretically keep the top end lubricated long enough that you don’t hear the rattle even if it was rattling. This is the concept with my use of liquimoly MOS2. For us up north, thicker oil won’t work for us in the winters as it would take longer to get to the top of the engine.

I think it isn't entirely an oil weight issue, but it's certainly a factor. Still, even if it does just mask the rattle to the point of being imperceivable, then all the better. Thicker oil does not drain from the actuator as quickly.

The goal would be to find one that doesn't at all - or at least during a time window when the operator isn't driving the car.

There are multiple factors in the rattle, the spring being the main one but like I said, the locking pin equally as such. The timing chain tensioner is another, and from what I've been told the actual chain itself if it's stretched.

 

[riverrockG19]

I replaced the spring in my 2014 CRV a year ago and the rattle has not returned.

I sent you a PM, did you see it?

 

[Deano-444]

I did not see your PM - sorry
The whole problem is the weak Honda spring. Changing oil viscosity may cause a temporary fix but the problem will return. The link below is for the Handyman spring which I used. It is stronger and longer. I had to cut off a couple coils to make the length right. I have not heard the rattle since I installed this spring about a year ago.

Look back through this thread and you will find installation tips. Search YouTube for "Honda VTC spring"

Amazon.com: Handyman Springs SP 9722 Compression Spring, Spring Steel Construction, Nickel-Plated Finish, 0.028 GA x 7/32 In. x 1-3/8 In. (4 Pack) : Industrial & Scientific

Shop Amazon for Handyman Springs SP 9722 Compression Spring, Spring Steel Construction, Nickel-Plated Finish, 0.028 GA x 7/32 In. x 1-3/8 In. (4 Pack) and find millions of items, delivered faster than ever.

www.amazon.com

 

[Deano-444]

I will check back here if you have any questions or concerns

 

[riverrockG19]

I will check back here if you have any questions or concerns

Yes, I am very aware of the spring issue. I've been inside my actuator several times. I may revisit it with the spring you linked to, which I have on hand. I had PM'd you about a post where you wrote that you used 10w-40 and stopped the rattle. I was wondering what the VB long term results of that were, but if you're saying that the rattle will return, I suppose it didn't work out.

 

[maceace]

Instead of starting a new thread I have a question for you pros...
My VVT actuator was replaced by a local mechanic, but I still hear the noise. Since then I've changed the timing chain tensioner VVT solenoid and VTEC Spool valve, and I continue to hear the rattle on cold starts.
Now, I'm starting to think that the Actuator may be defective, or it was not installed properly.

So finally the questions:
When you install the new actuator its supposed to be torqued in the open position then locked before installing the chain and putting the car back together.
If my mechanic installed the actuator and it was not locked in position after torqueing it down would that damage it and cause the rattle to persist?
I've been reading and youtubing for the past 4 weeks trying to figure out what could be causing the rattle I hear, and I keep coming back to a faulty VVT actuator.

The rattle happens after the car has been parked about 20 to 30 minutes, as the oil drains out of the actuator..

Video of the Rattle:

0 new items by Alex Talevski

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[riverrockG19]

Instead of starting a new thread I have a question for you pros...
My VVT actuator was replaced by a local mechanic, but I still hear the noise. Since then I've changed the timing chain tensioner VVT solenoid and VTEC Spool valve, and I continue to hear the rattle on cold starts.
Now, I'm starting to think that the Actuator may be defective, or it was not installed properly.

So finally the questions:
When you install the new actuator its supposed to be torqued in the open position then locked before installing the chain and putting the car back together.
If my mechanic installed the actuator and it was not locked in position after torqueing it down would that damage it and cause the rattle to persist?
I've been reading and youtubing for the past 4 weeks trying to figure out what could be causing the rattle I hear, and I keep coming back to a faulty VVT actuator.

The rattle happens after the car has been parked about 20 to 30 minutes, as the oil drains out of the actuator..

Video of the Rattle:

0 new items by Alex Talevski

photos.app.goo.gl

Pros? Maybe, but not by choice. This is a fairly obsessive issue to track down and resolve, for me personally.

The VVT oil control solenoid and the VTC actuator are separate components, the rattle coming from the latter. You've gotten everything else replaced and didn't need to - except the tensioner. That YOU DO need to have replaced, regardless of the VTC rattle. It's a time bomb, they do fail. But at least you didn't replace the starter thinking that it wasn't engaging correctly. I've read that one before.......damn, that's all I can write about that.

The place to start would have been replacing the spring inside the original actuator. You can still do that to your new actuator and Id be very surprised if it didn't resolve your rattle. Http:/spring-start.com or you can buy the spring pack off of Amazon linked above and use one of those after cutting it down.

To be perfectly blunt, you've thrown parts at the car and could have saved much money. We've all done it at one point or another.

 

[maceace]

So what are the odds that the vvt actuator is damaged and the spring change is not going to make a difference? I read online at least for toyotas if the actuator is not locked once torqued down in the open position it needs to get replaced as it gets damaged on the first start..

Alternatively, if it was torqued down in the locked position would that cause any permanent damage?

Also, is there anything else that could cause the actuator to rattle like that?

Also, what are the odds that the new actuator which was a honda part per the mechanic would fail immediately, you would think if anything the issue would be intermittent with a new actuator and not constant.

I'm at my wit's end with this and I dont wanna open up the top end and change the spring and put the car back together if I'm not sure it will fix the problem.

Also, how many cases have there been of stretched timing chains with the rattle not being fixed, since honda says it's not an issue and the car can be driven like it is without fixing...

 

[banks99]

So what are the odds that the vvt actuator is damaged and the spring change is not going to make a difference? I read online at least for toyotas if the actuator is not locked once torqued down in the open position it needs to get replaced as it gets damaged on the first start..

Alternatively, if it was torqued down in the locked position would that cause any permanent damage?

Also, is there anything else that could cause the actuator to rattle like that?

Also, what are the odds that the new actuator which was a honda part per the mechanic would fail immediately, you would think if anything the issue would be intermittent with a new actuator and not constant.

I'm at my wit's end with this and I dont wanna open up the top end and change the spring and put the car back together if I'm not sure it will fix the problem.

Also, how many cases have there been of stretched timing chains with the rattle not being fixed, since honda says it's not an issue and the car can be driven like it is without fixing...

Yes, torquing in the locked position could have damaged the locking pin because all the pressure would be on it when tightening the bolt. Could have broken the pin - which may explain your continuous rattle even after parts replacement. When in the unlocked position, all the pressure is distributed through the solid metal parts of the actuator.

 

[riverrockG19]

So what are the odds that the vvt actuator is damaged and the spring change is not going to make a difference? I read online at least for toyotas if the actuator is not locked once torqued down in the open position it needs to get replaced as it gets damaged on the first start..

Alternatively, if it was torqued down in the locked position would that cause any permanent damage?

Also, is there anything else that could cause the actuator to rattle like that?

Also, what are the odds that the new actuator which was a honda part per the mechanic would fail immediately, you would think if anything the issue would be intermittent with a new actuator and not constant.

I'm at my wit's end with this and I dont wanna open up the top end and change the spring and put the car back together if I'm not sure it will fix the problem.

Also, how many cases have there been of stretched timing chains with the rattle not being fixed, since honda says it's not an issue and the car can be driven like it is without fixing...

Again, it's VTC actuator. To second Banks reply, that is the reason that the official procedure involves unlocking the actuator as to not put all of that torque on the end of the locking pin. If yours is rattling non-stop then that's precisely what happened.

 

[maceace]

Again, it's VTC actuator. To second Banks reply, that is the reason that the official procedure involves unlocking the actuator as to not put all of that torque on the end of the locking pin. If yours is rattling non-stop then that's precisely what happened.

The actuator only rattles on cold starts or if it's been parked for 20 to 30 minutes or so, once started if you turn the car off and turn it back on it will not rattle right away, and I believe this is because it's full of oil and that dampens the effect of the vibration.
In any case I believe the consensus is to go ahead and replace the actuator correct?

 

[banks99]

The actuator only rattles on cold starts or if it's been parked for 20 to 30 minutes or so, once started if you turn the car off and turn it back on it will not rattle right away, and I believe this is because it's full of oil and that dampens the effect of the vibration.
In any case I believe the consensus is to go ahead and replace the actuator correct?

Either the spring as mentioned above or the whole actuator with the updated OEM part. The old actuator was R44 and the new is R5A.

 

[Deano-444]

The sole purpose of the locking pin is to prevent the camshaft from jumping forward and backward when the oil has drained from the chambers after sitting for awhile.
The original spring does not have enough tension to engage the locking pin while the engine is starting up and developing oil pressure to fill the chambers and hold the cam at the correct timing location as controlled by the VCT solenoid.
Choose a stronger spring to engage the locking pin as soon as the starter begins to turn the engine.
All other parts should be OK. The weak spring is the culprit.

 

[riverrockG19]

The actuator only rattles on cold starts or if it's been parked for 20 to 30 minutes or so, once started if you turn the car off and turn it back on it will not rattle right away, and I believe this is because it's full of oil and that dampens the effect of the vibration.
In any case I believe the consensus is to go ahead and replace the actuator correct?

Replacement isn't the fix, re-read my reply above. This is a multiple cause issue. With the spring being the epicenter of them all. Even with the updated part, the rattle can and does still return. If you follow the link I posted, you will see that the kit for our actuators includes a replacement spring for the updated R5A actuator.

 

[maceace]

Replacement isn't the fix, re-read my reply above. This is a multiple cause issue. With the spring being the epicenter of them all. Even with the updated part, the rattle can and does still return. If you follow the link I posted, you will see that the kit for our actuators includes a replacement spring for the updated R5A actuator.

I understand what you are trying to say, but you have to understand what I'm trying to rule out. Again, my actuator was replaced less then 500 miles ago, and again, unless it was improperly installed what are the odds that the new actuator would fail right out of the box, considering my mechanic is trustworthy and he claims to have gotten the new actuator from honda. Even if he got the older actuator and not the updated version you would think it would not fail right out of the box. In other words, the noise never stopped after it was changed out from old to new......

 

[riverrockG19]

I understand what you are trying to say, but you have to understand what I'm trying to rule out. Again, my actuator was replaced less then 500 miles ago, and again, unless it was improperly installed what are the odds that the new actuator would fail right out of the box, considering my mechanic is trustworthy and he claims to have gotten the new actuator from honda. Even if he got the older actuator and not the updated version you would think it would not fail right out of the box. In other words, the noise never stopped after it was changed out from old to new......

Gotcha. Tell me this, how many miles on that motor now and also, what oil weight have you been running, what mileage did you buy the car at?

I'm asking because your engine could have run low on oil for a long time and stretched the timing chain through overheating it due to low oil. If you haven't verified whether the chain is stretched, you really ought to.

Remove valve cover, set piston #1 to TDC, and if the white crank pulley notch lines up with the arrow on the timing chain then the notch marks on the cam gears should be facing each other. Any other orientation and the chain is stretched and needs replacement.

From what I've learned a stretched chain will give the rattle, and eventually you'll get VTC codes and the engine will lose a lot of power. The added heat probably also affects the springs inside the actuators as well. Springs get weak and shorten like they do in our actuators due to heat and cycling from compressed to decompressed, but really, the springs in the actuators are not that stiff to begin with.

They need to be within a certain range of what it takes to compress them so that they can allow oil pressure to overcome the force and act upon the inner vane rotor to advance the intake cam. People have had good results with the Handyman spring off of Amazon like what are linked above. These to my knowledge were the initial replacement springs that people started using after they realized that stretching the original springs didn't last.