[downeast]

Roger that riverrockG19, and thanks for your advice.

I've had it almost since new with 3k miles (it now has 153k), and out of all the cars I've owned, it burned the least oil. In fact, I've never had to add oil between oil changes.

If it turns out the timing is too far off and needs a new chain, I will likely just button it up and hire that out as I don't have a garage. If timing is not too bad I'll continue with your suggestions.

Its an 8th gen i-vtec Accord 2.4L (2008-12). Honda originally specified 5w-20 in 8th gen and switched to 0w-20 in 2011. 5w-30 was specified up to 2000. I found an interesting historic oil chart across Honda models over on driveaccord.net.

View attachment 164598

After a little digging I found this troubleshooting flowchart on justanswer.com that reinforces what you said. I'm posting this should it be of value to others.

 

[riverrockG19]

After a little digging I found this troubleshooting flowchart on justanswer.com that reinforces what you said. I'm posting this should it be of value to others.

The vast majority of people with the rattle don't have codes. Just the rattle. It's not that Honda spec'd their engines overnight for 5w and then 0w20, it's just that they were forced to abide by CAFE standards to meet target MPG. The same engines for all years in other countries do not spec 0w20. Some countries even spec up to 5w40. I've read Honda engines can run 10w40 heaviest. In fact someone who had the rattle switched to 10w40 and did nothing else, and their rattle was eliminated.

It's really the oil that causes this. And years of 0w20 does nothing but hurt. This is why you read and hear about K series burning oil and the stick ring issues. The springs do get weak inside the actuators, BUT, this like the chains stretching, is a result of the thin oil and the way it burns and depletes the oil levels. And the added heat weakens the springs and makes them shorter.

What also happens is, the locking pins start to stick in the detents on the backside of the gears. This is why working that pin over is so important.

 

[downeast]

The vast majority of people with the rattle don't have codes. Just the rattle. It's not that Honda spec'd their engines overnight for 5w and then 0w20, it's just that they were forced to abide by CAFE standards to meet target MPG. The same engines for all years in other countries do not spec 0w20. Some countries even spec up to 5w40. I've read Honda engines can run 10w40 heaviest. In fact someone who had the rattle switched to 10w40 and did nothing else, and their rattle was eliminated.

It's really the oil that causes this. And years of 0w20 does nothing but hurt. This is why you read and hear about K series burning oil and the stick ring issues. The springs do get weak inside the actuators, BUT, this like the chains stretching, is a result of the thin oil and the way it burns and depletes the oil levels. And the added heat weakens the springs and makes them shorter.

What also happens is, the locking pins start to stick in the detents on the backside of the gears. This is why working that pin over is so important.

Great information riverrockG19! I wasn't even thinking in terms of different specs in other countries. I will now want to look at what folks are advising with my other vehicles- a 2017 Wrangler JK with a manual trans, and a 2015 Silverado 2500hd. Likely the same applies in their attempts to meet targets. I've always been more of a boating guy than auto, having several 2-stoke outboards I tinker with. Guess I need to pay more attention to the land lover side of things.

 

[riverrockG19]

Great information riverrockG19! I wasn't even thinking in terms of different specs in other countries. I will now want to look at what folks are advising with my other vehicles- a 2017 Wrangler JK with a manual trans, and a 2015 Silverado 2500hd. Likely the same applies in their attempts to meet targets. I've always been more of a boating guy than auto, having several 2-stoke outboards I tinker with. Guess I need to pay more attention to the land lover side of things.

I wouldn't run them with anything less than 5w-30. Ask yourself, would you run 0w20 in an outboard? The manufacturers didn't change their engine clearances overnight to adapt to 0w20.

 

[downeast]

Agreed, the 6.0L truck does use 5w-30, but the 3.6L Jeep specifies 5w-20. I'll research what others are using. The outboards are older 2-strokes: 1986 Evinrude 90hp (owned since new), 1999 Suzuki 115hp (owned since new), 1995 Johnson 6hp (owned since 2 yrs old). Love that simplicity. Thinking about going old school and selling the Jeep and finding a good 1970's Toyota FJ40.

 

[riverrockG19]

Agreed, the 6.0L truck does use 5w-30, but the 3.6L Jeep specifies 5w-20. I'll research what others are using. The outboards are older 2-strokes: 1986 Evinrude 90hp (owned since new), 1999 Suzuki 115hp (owned since new), 1995 Johnson 6hp (owned since 2 yrs old). Love that simplicity. Thinking about going old school and selling the Jeep and finding a good 1970's Toyota FJ40.

Just buy a JDM Landcruiser, to me, there's no need to try and find one originally sold here, especially from the 70's. They are right hand drive, so some people may not prefer that. You can buy one 25 years or older and have a far better and fresher truck than one originally sold in North America. Most have less than 90K miles.

Back on topic though, if you want to PM me your address and send me $5, I can send you the spring you need and give you a link to the 5 point T30 Torx socket needed to get the factory actuator cover bolts out, along with a copy of the installation instructions. The kits come with two different springs for the original R44 actuators and one for the R5A actuators. I read your post saying you have the latter, is that correct?

 

[Coastie05]

Okay everyone, I appreciate the conversation but please stay on topic.

 

[riverrockG19]

First off the rubber mounted HB floating ring is not to be fully trusted, and besides the proper mark is the one I posted.
Secondly it makes no sense to replace the chain at such low miles, unless for sure it is known bad, is the tensioner at the end of travel, is the chain loose?

Going back through the thread, this is absolutely true regarding the crank pulley/HB marks. There were times I thought I had it lined up, just to find out it wasn't. If the plugs are still in, which most people will leave alone, the pulley will want to move on it's own under the engine compression. It almost requires one person holding the crank in position while another checks the cam gear notches.

 

[downeast]

Going back through the thread, this is absolutely true regarding the crank pulley/HB marks. There were times I thought I had it lined up, just to find out it wasn't. If the plugs are still in, which most people will leave alone, the pulley will want to move on it's own under the engine compression. It almost requires one person holding the crank in position while another checks the cam gear notches.

Sorry about straying off topic earlier.

So just so I’m understanding this correctly, this is how the actuator should work:

When you turn the engine off, the actuator should return to its locked position, and oil will eventually drain out of its chambers.
When you start the car, even on cold starts when the chambers would have drained, the pin should remain locked until the actuator chambers begin to fill with oil.
Once the actuator locking pin is pushed out with enough oil pressure to overcome spring pressure, the system works without the clatter from empty chambers.

In this case, where both cold start clatter exists, along with codes P0341 and P1009, there is a strong possibility that either the chain is stretched, poor tensioner, or both. Therefore, check camshaft timing. When checking this, is there an acceptable distance from timing mark to crankshaft pully mark?

Even if timing is not within acceptable limits, might as well proceed with spring replacement.
Remove actuator cover with a good quality TS30H 5-star bit.
Remove the spring. Should I expect to find the locking pin in locked position?
Remove the locking pin, perhaps with a small expansion plier, clean it, check for damage, and dress it up with something like a 3M abrasive pad or similar.
Oil the pin, reinsert and insure it slides freely in and out. Install new spring.
Use new bolts (either socket or hex), 6mm x 1.0mm x 30mm. Can these be fully threaded, or do they need a ¼ inch or so unthreaded shank, or it really doesn’t matter?
Use Loctite on actuator bolts? medium, high?
Torque to about 7 to 8 Ft-Lbs?
Check valve clearance.
If timing was good and chain wasn’t stretched, perhaps bench test the oil control solenoid and clean or replace.
If chain was bad, replace chain and tensioner.
Start using heavier weight oil, such as 5w-20 and perhaps even 5w-30.

 

[riverrockG19]

Sorry about straying off topic earlier.

So just so I’m understanding this correctly, this is how the actuator should work:

When you turn the engine off, the actuator should return to its locked position, and oil will eventually drain out of its chambers.
When you start the car, even on cold starts when the chambers would have drained, the pin should remain locked until the actuator chambers begin to fill with oil.
Once the actuator locking pin is pushed out with enough oil pressure to overcome spring pressure, the system works without the clatter from empty chambers.

In this case, where both cold start clatter exists, along with codes P0341 and P1009, there is a strong possibility that either the chain is stretched, poor tensioner, or both. Therefore, check camshaft timing. When checking this, is there an acceptable distance from timing mark to crankshaft pully mark?

Even if timing is not within acceptable limits, might as well proceed with spring replacement.
Remove actuator cover with a good quality TS30H 5-star bit.
Remove the spring. Should I expect to find the locking pin in locked position?
Remove the locking pin, perhaps with a small expansion plier, clean it, check for damage, and dress it up with something like a 3M abrasive pad or similar.
Oil the pin, reinsert and insure it slides freely in and out. Install new spring.
Use new bolts (either socket or hex), 6mm x 1.0mm x 30mm. Can these be fully threaded, or do they need a ¼ inch or so unthreaded shank, or it really doesn’t matter?
Use Loctite on actuator bolts? medium, high?
Torque to about 7 to 8 Ft-Lbs?
Check valve clearance.
If timing was good and chain wasn’t stretched, perhaps bench test the oil control solenoid and clean or replace.
If chain was bad, replace chain and tensioner.
Start using heavier weight oil, such as 5w-20 and perhaps even 5w-30.

You've got everything correct, except the removal of the pin. Pliers won't work, you need the end of an Allen key. And, your intake cam will probably advance completely forward. Don't panic - just turn the engine clockwise to get the holes lined back up.

You need some various grades of emery cloth or at least use a Scotchbrite pad. I'd use the coarse brown pad then the green pad. There are these abrasive wheels for rotary tools that are in various grades of essentially Scotchbrite fiber, on Amazon. I used those and emery cloths. You want that pin to go in and out freely, and use clean oil each time you try and for the final install.

No threadlocker necessary - but if you do use it, get the one for use with oily parts and get the blue. For 5-bolt actuators the torque should be 8 ft lbs (96 in lbs) and done in steps in a star pattern, just like a wheel.

You've got codes - I seriously believe your chain is stretched. Go OEM Honda, people who have mismatched aftermarket parts (or matched them) have had bad experiences.

The VVT oil control solenoid is not an issue unless you've got a code for it. If you do, then yes, bench test it and have one on hand to replace it. It's really not a part of the rattle though, as easy and nice as it would be to just replace for stopping the rattle. They can last a long, long time.

And yes, go to 5w-30. Always full synthetic. I wouldn't bother with the 5w-20 unless in winter it gets very very cold where you are. I'm in Virginia, so we see 90+ F days in the summer. I'm about to start using Pennzoil Platinum 10w-30 this week and I will report back after a week of driving with the results. In the winter I plan switching back to 5w-30 regardless.

 

[downeast]

You've got everything correct, except the removal of the pin. Pliers won't work, you need the end of an Allen key. And, your intake cam will probably advance completely forward. Don't panic - just turn the engine clockwise to get the holes lined back up.

You need some various grades of emery cloth or at least use a Scotchbrite pad. I'd use the coarse brown pad then the green pad. There are these abrasive wheels for rotary tools that are in various grades of essentially Scotchbrite fiber, on Amazon. I used those and emery cloths. You want that pin to go in and out freely, and use clean oil each time you try and for the final install.

No threadlocker necessary - but if you do use it, get the one for use with oily parts and get the blue. For 5-bolt actuators the torque should be 8 ft lbs (96 in lbs) and done in steps in a star pattern, just like a wheel.

You've got codes - I seriously believe your chain is stretched. Go OEM Honda, people who have mismatched aftermarket parts (or matched them) have had bad experiences.

The VVT oil control solenoid is not an issue unless you've got a code for it. If you do, then yes, bench test it and have one on hand to replace it. It's really not a part of the rattle though, as easy and nice as it would be to just replace for stopping the rattle. They can last a long, long time.

And yes, go to 5w-30. Always full synthetic. I wouldn't bother with the 5w-20 unless in winter it gets very very cold where you are. I'm in Virginia, so we see 90+ F days in the summer. I'm about to start using Pennzoil Platinum 10w-30 this week and I will report back after a week of driving with the results. In the winter I plan switching back to 5w-30 regardless.

Much thanks RiverrockG19 for taking the time for such a detailed response! I will proceed according.

I'm unclear regarding the use of an allen key in getting the pin out. Is there a lip on the pin you are trying to catch?

 

[riverrockG19]

Much thanks RiverrockG19 for taking the time for such a detailed response! I will proceed according.

I'm unclear regarding the use of an allen key in getting the pin out. Is there a lip on the pin you are trying to catch?

No, there's no lip or anything that can be used to get it out. You find an Allen key that fits relatively tightly inside the pin's inner diameter where the spring would go after removing the spring, and pull it out. Here is a picture of mine that I took the last time I was in there. Work the pin over a little at a time until it moves freely in and out of that detent with some clean oil on it, and stop there.

You need to work over the three different outer diameters of the pin, as it's stepped. I've included a picture of that as well. The most critical OD is the tip of the pin on the end. This is what goes into the detent in the back cover of the gear. Not a good idea to go crazy because the pin is made to fit as precise as possible, and you don't want to go adding any unnecessary play.

Use some cardboard to fit between the back cover of the gear and the part near the end of the cam before you remove the front cover (facing you). And obviously, stuff a towel or rag into the top of the timing cover to block anything that drops.

I'd be very interested to know if your cam advances forward when you pull yours out of the actuator. Spring Start tells me that this does not usually happen, but they have had it happen.

 

[downeast]

No, there's no lip or anything that can be used to get it out. You find an Allen key that fits relatively tightly inside the pin's inner diameter where the spring would go after removing the spring, and pull it out. Here is a picture of mine that I took the last time I was in there. Work the pin over a little at a time until it moves freely in and out of that detent with some clean oil on it, and stop there.

You need to work over the three different outer diameters of the pin, as it's stepped. I've included a picture of that as well. The most critical OD is the tip of the pin on the end. This is what goes into the detent in the back cover of the gear. Not a good idea to go crazy because the pin is made to fit as precise as possible, and you don't want to go adding any unnecessary play.

Use some cardboard to fit between the back cover of the gear and the part near the end of the cam before you remove the front cover (facing you). And obviously, stuff a towel or rag into the top of the timing cover to block anything that drops.

I'd be very interested to know if your cam advances forward when you pull yours out of the actuator. Spring Start tells me that this does not usually happen, but they have had it happen.

Thanks RiverrockG19. Sort of why I was thinking of using a small expansion plier, but perhaps an expandable pipe plug would also work, provided its small enough. This one goes from 0.38"-0.43" (10-11 mm). I could easily make one out of hose.

 

[riverrockG19]

Thanks RiverrockG19. Sort of why I was thinking of using a small expansion plier, but perhaps an expandable pipe plug would also work, provided its small enough. This one goes from 0.38"-0.43" (10-11 mm). I could easily make one out of hose.
View attachment 164640

Sure, that would be ideal. I didn't think that far into it, as I had just planned to use the end of an Allen key and for it to just come right out.

The problem is, mine didn't just come right out. Mine had tension on it because the cam lobes were in a spot that forced the cam to advance once the pin was out.

You'd want a smaller expansion plier than the 10mm though. That inner pin diameter is close to the spring OD, which is around 6 or 7mm.

 

[banks99]

Just use a magnet pick up tool to get the pin out, you reduce the risk of dropping it in the engine.

 

[riverrockG19]

Just use a magnet pick up tool to get the pin out, you reduce the risk of dropping it in the engine.

I tried that at first, but mine would not come out that easily until I worked it over. The rattle being fixed as I'm told in taking with Spring Start, has as much to do with the locking pin being free-moving as it does with the spring.

They told me that they are working on new leaf springs for the rotor vane oil seals and a completely new locking pin spring, all just for the CR-V actuators. Being that they are, in their extensive experience, the most difficult to resolve.

What the difference is, between K24 motor VTC actuators in the Accord and CR-V, I have no idea. You would think they would be exactly the same, but their data shows otherwise.

I do know that some springs in R44 actuators have a black plastic seat that installs into the end of the spring and rides up against the inner front cover. Others don't have one at all - just the exposed bare spring end.

 

[downeast]

I tried that at first, but mine would not come out that easily until I worked it over. The rattle being fixed as I'm told in taking with Spring Start, has as much to do with the locking pin being free-moving as it does with the spring. They told me that they are working on new leaf springs for the rotor vane oil seals and a completely new locking pin spring, all just for the CR-V actuators. Being that they are, in their extensive experience, the most difficult to resolve. What the difference is, between K24 motor VTC actuators in the Accord and CR-V, I have no idea. You would think they would be exactly the same, but their data shows otherwise. I do know that some springs in R44 actuators have a black plastic seat that installs into the end of the spring and rides up against the inner front cover. Others don't have one at all - just the exposed bare spring end. To keep the intake cam from advancing after the actuator pin is removed, you can lock the exhaust and intake cams together using two wrenches and a clamp, like this:

 

[riverrockG19]

To keep the intake cam from advancing after the actuator pin is removed, you can lock the exhaust and intake cams together using two wrenches and a clamp, like this: View attachment 164643

After the first time it happened, I got the cam locking tool and installed it, but I brushed past it and the tool came out, allowing the cam to advance. Honda makes an official tool just for locking the cams, and there are many knock offs on Amazon as well.

 

[downeast]

I see that all images advertising the newer R5A actuator are stamped the same as the old (with R44). I can't find that anyone has ever actually taken them apart for a side by side comparison.

I'm also curious if Honda is the actual manufacturer. Perhaps another company, such as WVE (their part 3T1025 looks identical) provides them for Honda.

Lastly, do you think the only difference between R44 and R5A is the spring? Perhaps the R5A spring is wider, longer, stiffer, or was R5A just a part number change to appease customers until the majority of warranties expire?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a pretty cool design. Perhaps the implementation of that design could have been improved. Those wear springs that separate components are also likely to degrade, lessening ability to remain concentric, and therefore also contributing to the locking pin's inability to engage during cold starts.

 

[riverrockG19]

I see that all images advertising the newer R5A actuator are stamped the same as the old (with R44). I can't find that anyone has ever actually taken them apart for a side by side comparison.

I'm also curious if Honda is the actual manufacturer. Perhaps another company, such as WVE (their part 3T1025 looks identical) provides them for Honda.

Lastly, do you think the only difference between R44 and R5A is the spring? Perhaps the R5A spring is wider, longer, stiffer, or was R5A just a part number change to appease customers until the majority of warranties expire?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a pretty cool design. Perhaps the implementation of that design could have been improved. Those wear springs that separate components are also likely to degrade, lessening ability to remain concentric, and therefore also contributing to the locking pin's inability to engage during cold starts.

The only difference I am aware of is the spring. It's a smaller diameter, longer, and actually is of a softer rate. There has to be one other thing that is different. I can't imagine Honda engineers redesigned an entire actuator and only changed the spring. I had brought up getting a new aftermarket actuator to disassemble and use the pin out of to Spring Start, to which they already had tried this and said it didn't work. They said even swapping pins from OEM actuators proves unsuccessful. Almost as if they are particular to the gear they were originally installed in. I think a highly polished and thoughtfully designed new locking pin might be a huge advancement in resolving this.

Truly, I believe the reason why after people replaced the R44 with the R5A and the rattle returns is from running 0w-20. It's so thin that it is extra susceptible to evacuating the actuator, and no real film is left behind. Even at that light weight, after returning to the crankcase, it cannot get up to the top of the engine and into the actuator fast enough to refill it on start up.

This weekend I will have the chance to change out my 5w-30/LM MoS2 fill and replace it with 10w-30 synthetic. I have noticed a marked difference in the rattle being more quiet, almost barely occurring at all, when the temperature outside is cooler at night upon start up the next morning. It's the really hot days that produce the rattle. At one point when I posted a few days ago it seemed to have gotten louder. We've been lucky enough to get night temperatures in the mid-60's this past week. I will report back after a week on the 10w-30.